(Part IV)
[This material is copyrighted]
Devvy Kidd
June 25, 2001
I would urge you to read
all of Trooper Hanger's testimony as it is critical to understand McVeigh's
state
of mind at the time
of his arrest, his cooperation and what was and wasn't found during the
arrest, i.e. no
dates on notes and signs.
McVeigh has been placed
in Junction City, Kansas before the bombing with a yellow Ryder truck.
A few
days later, close to
the cut-off to Arkansas, but traveling north instead of south if he were
going to take
the cut-off, he is pulled
over by Trooper Hanger. He tells Trooper Hanger that he was moving to
Arkansas, had taken
a load of stuff there and was on his way back to Arkansas.
We have more sightings:
There is another witness who saw McVeigh in OKC after the bombing
displaying some very
strange behavior not consistent with someone 27 years old who likes to
watch
cartoons. This McVeigh
came off as one would expect from a cold-blooded killer. This is an excerpt
from Carol Howe's trial:
DIRECT EXAMINATION of Germaine Johnston
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. Johnston.
A. Good morning.
Q. Mrs. Johnston, are you employed by the federal government?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Were you in the Murrah Building at 9:02 a.m. in the morning on that day?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were you injured in the blast?
A. I was -- I had some
glass embedded in my scalp, and I had some cuts, and I had some ear and
lung
problems right afterwards;
but my injuries were very minor, relatively.
Q. What -- the ear and lung problems, do you know what that was caused by?
A. I think it was caused
by the pressure of the bomb forcing things into my ear and then -- the
lung
problem, I had pleurisy
several times, was caused by the walking down the stairway and inhaling
all of the
glasses and pulverized
concrete and all of those things that were in the stairwell.
Q. Were you treated that day for your injuries?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you released that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Ma'am, I'm going to
show you what's been previously admitted as Government Exhibit G940. Now,
were you able to get
out of the Murrah Building that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you show the
jury on the map, using the pen that's connected to a wire on your desk
-- there
should be one -- that's
the one. And then if you reach under -- You have to reach under and actually
touch the screen.
A. Oh, okay.
Q. Can you show them where you emerged from the Murrah Building?
A. Right here on the south side out of the east stairwell.
Q. Okay. And onto the plaza area there?
A. Yes. Out onto the plaza area.
Q. Do you know what time you got -- managed to get out of the building?
A. I'm not sure. I think it was 5 or 10 minutes after the blast.
Q. Okay. Now, did you have a particular concern when you emerged apart from your own injuries and --
A. Well, first, our first
thought was that we were supposed to go over to where our group would meet.
We had evacuation drills
for emergencies; and when we would leave the building, we were supposed
to
go across on Robinson
-- this is going up a little bit here -- we were to go across on Robinson
and meet
in a certain spot. So
Bob Smart and I walked over there to meet people, and there was nobody
else there
from our agency.
Q. When you got there, did you eventually decide to try to find your husband?
A. Yes. Well, not from
there. From there we walked up to 5th Street and over in front of the Y.
We
thought maybe some of
our people might be over here. And we walked over there, and there were
medical people set up
and things like that.
But Bob's wife, Terry
Rees, had worked in this part of the building, and he was concerned about
her; and
she was killed. But
he decided he was going to go back over in front of the building and see
if there was
word about her. And
I decided that I needed to go down to the Kerr-McGee building where my
husband
works and find him.
Q. Okay. Now, then can
you pause. Can you see -- is the Kerr-McGee building marked in any way
on
this -- I'm sorry.
A. No, it's down here. It's down here on the McGee Avenue.
Q. And is it actually on that block?
A. Oh, is it on -- it's right here.
Q. It is. Okay.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Tell the jury how you proceeded to go to that building.
A. Okay. There's an alley
-- there's an alley that doesn't show on this map. You can see it up here
between 5th and 6th
Street, but -- right here.
Q. Can you show --
A. You can see it right here. But it actually goes all the way through here.
Q. How far --
A. Between the two Southwestern
Bell buildings and to the Kerr-McGee plaza; and from where I was,
that would be the shortest
way to get to McGee Tower.
Q. Did you take that route down the alley?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you have an encounter with someone that stood out in your mind?
A. Yes, I did. When I
got down here, to the Southwestern Bell property, there was a car sitting
facing
north, and there were
two young men standing by it. And as -- approached them.
Q. Let me just stop you there and try to get a time.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you know about how long after the bombing that would have been?
A. My estimate would
be that it was 20 or 25 minutes afterwards. I think between 9:25 and 9:35
or
something like that.
Q. Okay. Now, you said that there were two young men that you saw?
A. Uh-huh, there were
two men standing by the passenger side of this car. It was yellow car.
It was
parked in the alley,
close to this building right here, facing north; and they were standing
by the driver's
door.
Q. It was -- could you show -- point in the direction? Which direction is north on this map?
A. I can't figure out how this thing works here. That's north.
Q. Okay. The direction of the arrow?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, did you recognize the type of car?
A. It was a Mercury.
Q. How do you know that?
A. My husband and I used to drive a Mercury, about that same age and about that same color.
Q. What model, year model was your Mercury?
A. '77.
Q. What color was this Mercury?
A. It was faded yellow.
Q. Okay. Was it a four-door?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the two young men that you mentioned: Did you get a look at either or both of them?
A. I'm not -- not that I could describe them in detail; but one -- one was tall and one was shorter.
Q. Did you have any conversation with either of them?
A. Yes. As I -- as I
walked -- as I approached them, it was obvious that I had come out of the
building
because I was covered
with pulverized concrete, I think, and I was wet because the pipes had
broken. My
hair was wet and everything.
It was obvious I had come out of there. And as I got close to them, the
tallest one said, "What
happened?" And I said, "There was an explosion in the federal building."
Q. And what did he say?
A. And he said, "A lot of people killed?"
Q. And how did you respond?
A. I just -- I said I didn't know. I said, "I don't know." And just walked on.
Q. Did anything strike you as unusual about that exchange at that time?
A. Yes. Because I thought
he was going to ask me if he could help me or if I was okay or something,
which several people
had already done that. And it really surprised me that he just wanted to
know how
many people were killed.
Q. From what you could tell, did he appear to be concerned about the number of people killed?
A. No. No. He just wanted to know.
Q. Okay. From that position that you marked on the map, can you see the Murrah Building?
A. Yes. There is a clear view from right here. There is a clear view over to the Murrah Building.
Q. Is that true from the entire length of that alley?
A. No. You'd have to
be just about in that spot to be able to see the Murrah Building. If you
get further
back, it's blocked by
buildings.
Q. Mrs. Johnston, did
there come a time when you realized that you could identify the individual
who
you had some conversation
with?
A. Yes. When I saw Timothy
McVeigh on television, it just instantly -- I realized that he was the
person I
had talked to in the
alley.
Q. You were immediately struck with that thought?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, could you describe the other individual that you saw that day?
A. Not in -- not in any detail. Just that he was shorter and darker.
Q. Shorter and darker than Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you remember anything about his build?
A. Not really.
Q. Do you recall speaking to the FBI about this interview -- about this encounter in August of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. If I showed you a
report of your interview, might that refresh your recollection as to your
picture of
the individual?
A. It might.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Your Honor, I'm showing the witness 302 9458.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. THURSCHWELL: And I'm indicating the fourth and final paragraph on the first page.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Does that refresh your recollection as you sit here today about the appearance of the individual?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. But that was two years ago. So that must be what I remembered then.
Q. Okay. If it doesn't refresh your recollection today, we won't ask you about it.
MR. THURSCHWELL: A moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Mrs. Johnston, did
you eventually see on television sketches of other -- of another individual
or
individuals that were
commonly referred to as John Doe No. 2?
A. Yes, yes, I did.
Q. Did -- to the best
of your recollection, did you have the same shock of recognition about
the other
individual when you
saw those?
A. No.
Q. But you did when you saw the photographic image of Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
* * *
You can look at McVeigh's car here:
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/current/April/exb412.jpg
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/current/April/exb413.jpg
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/current/April/exb414.jpg
You will notice on the
driver's side of the car, there is huge discoloration and rust. There is
no mention
of this in Mrs. Johnston's
testimony above because she is standing on the passenger side of the car
and
probably did not walk
around the other side to see this distinguishing discoloration. There was
no
mention in her testimony
of doing so.
Tom Manning, who sold
McVeigh the Mercury, did not testify in court, it was done through a video
deposition. After a
year and a half, he changed his original statements. Since we do not have
access to the
video deposition, we
can't see if he spoke of the color discoloration on the car. Information
on this
testimony can be found
at:
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/dailytx/052997p/CLOSINGARGUMENT29thMaypm12.html
http://www.execpc.com/~jfish/na/030397n3.txt
The car now becomes a very important piece of evidence.
The other critical statement during Mrs. Johnston's testimony that must be considered is this:
She states that she approached
this yellow '77 Mercury approximately 20-25 minutes after the bombing.
That would make it somewhere
between 9:25am and 9:35am in her words. That is her testimony.
These are very, very
important minutes. Why? Because Trooper Hanger stated in his testimony
that he
pulled McVeigh over,
it was approximately 10:20 am. According to his log for that day, it says
he called in
the arrest at 10:22
am:
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/current/april/exb415.jpg
On May 20, 1995, I drove
from the Murrah Building to the spot where McVeigh was arrested. According
to the feds, McVeigh
drove it in 75 minutes.
McVeigh allegedly left
the Ryder truck at 9:00 am, walked quickly away and 1 hr and 20 minutes
later, he
was pulled over. That
can be done if you drove straight as the crow flies.
Even if McVeigh walked
straight to his get-away car, the Murrah Building was not sitting next
to the
freeway on-ramp. Precious
minutes would be eaten up getting to I-35 north. Trooper Hanger says
McVeigh was not speeding
when he approached him. Could he have been speeding before that?
Certainly, but it would
not have been wise to attract the attention of any law enforcement in the
area.
Now, let's go back to
Mrs. Johnston. She says she spoke with McVeigh and another man at roughly
9:25-9:35 am. She testified
that she approached them, they were just standing there on the driver's
side.
She spoke with them
and then moved on. What a minute? Less?
The question is how long
did this McVeigh and the other unidentified man continue to stand there?
Did they
get in this yellow car
and leave? Did the unidentified man leave then and then this McVeigh get
in his car
and take off? We don't
know.
One thing I do know:
If it was 9:25-9:35 am and McVeigh was standing around near the building,
there
simply is no way, without
traveling at a high speed all the way, that McVeigh could have made it
to marker
202-203 where Trooper
Hanger stopped him at 10:20 am. Remember, Trooper Hanger says he stopped
him at 10:20, but he
passed McVeigh first and then dropped back. All this eats up precious minutes
before his stated pull-over
time of 10:20 am.
McVeigh would have had
to leave the minute Mrs. Johnston walked away, hurry to I- 35, which would
have drawn a lot of
attention, some one fleeing instead of sticking around to help, and race
up I-35 to
travel 75 miles in the
45 minutes left to him based on Mrs. Johnston's testimony. Could you drive
75 miles in
45 minutes? This means
getting to the freeway through the massive mess and heading out at a very
high
speed.
The time line doesn't
work. Mrs. Johnston was a victim. It's unlikely she would want to mislead
anyone
during her testimony
to protect McVeigh. This not only establishes very reasonable doubt, it
also puts us
once again with two
McVeigh look-alikes.
More than 10,000 signatures
were collected so that former Oklahoma State Rep. Charles Key could
convene a county grand
jury to investigate this bombing. He was skewered by Gov. Frank Keating
and
every newspaper in town
for attempting to get to the truth. 10,000 people in the city where this
horrific
act of terrorism smelled
a rat after the bombing and just wanted the truth. Could all of them be
anti-government, right-wing
wackos?
Below is a memo from
survivor, Jane Graham. Why has the government consistently refused to conduct
a real investigation
into the bombing?
I now rest on this point.
The court transcripts will lend further doubt as to whether or not Timothy
James McVeigh was in
Oklahoma City that morning, er, which Tim McVeigh was that now?
Motive
This has been covered
to the point of ad nauseam. McVeigh hated the government. He hated what
happened at Ruby Ridge
and Waco, so he set out to murder a bunch of innocent people to send a
message to the government.
He read "anti-government" literature, which included copies of the U.S.
Constitution and other
historical writings. He went to gun shows. The media saturation on this
defendant with the intention
of demonizing him and his political beliefs is well covered in the trial
transcripts, so there's
not much to add here except to comment on the Eloim City connection.
Much of the speculation
about this bombing has focused on this group of people. While I find their
religious and political
beliefs despicable, it's the way they believe and under the First Amendment
they
have the right to believe
what they want. My question is: How come the feds have left these potentially
dangerous people alone?
Actually, the vast majority
of the American people have heard very little about the OKC bombing and
even less about this
Eloim City. Huh, you say?
Most of America heard
the coverage from ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN the day of the bombing and for
about
a week thereafter. They
followed what was printed in their local newspaper. They saw McVeigh in
his
orange jump suit over
and over, just like the Rodney King beating film. Most of America heard
a snippet
here and there about
McVeigh's trial, conviction and sentencing, because that's how the compromised
media feeds America
the spoonfuls of what they want them to see.
In the Denver, CO., area
where McVeigh's trial was conducted, we got heavy coverage on the evening
news, but it was mostly
the same regurgitated film clips with some commentary. Upon McVeigh's
conviction, most breathed
a collective sigh of relief that another anti-government right-wing wacko
was
going to "get what he
deserves."
Most of America saw the
survivors and families of the victims with their raw hurt and anger. Our
hearts
bleed for them. Most
of America saw the saturation coverage of McVeigh's execution. From these
carefully chosen snippets
served up daily, America rests comfortably tonight knowing that the
self-confessed OKC lone-bomber
is now dead and justice has been served.
While it's hard to estimate
a percentage, I would say that a few million people have closely followed
OKC as well TWA Flight
800, Ron Brown and other "tragedies." If you're not up to speed on the
Eloim
City/Howe saga, I would
direct you to the URL below. It is an accurate compilation of the Eloim
City
crowd and the ATF and
FBI's informants who, unbeknownst to either agency, both had undercover
snitches inside. Rev.
Robert Millar for the FBI. Carol Howe for ATF.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1997/vo13no19/vo13no19_howe.htm
Here is some of Ms. Howe's testimony during her trial:
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/dailytx/121097a/CarolHoweCrossExamination1.html
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/dailytx/121097a/CarolHoweDirectExamination.html
The FBI had the good
Rev. Robert Millar on their team. He's was the spiritual guru there at
the time.
During Carol Howe's
trial, the courtroom went nuts when a senior FBI agent confirmed that Millar
was a
CI (confidential informant).
Oh, my. I don't know what the good Reverend does these days since I have
no interest in that
crowd other than wishing they would go away.
Eloim City is described
as a para-military group that hosts very nasty Neo-Nazi types. As long
as they do
not break any laws or
hurt anyone, hopefully their sick ideology will die out with them. We should
also
be concerned how the
feds are using this group of undesirables and have crimes been committed
by
these jokers and covered
up by the feds? That whole situation stinks to high heaven.
At the same time the
role of Rev. Millar is exposed, we find out that the ATF has a Ms. Carol
Howe in
the same group hunkered
down in the mountains. Ms. Howe took her under cover work so seriously,
she had a big old Nazi
tattoo done on her arm. As we all know, tattoos are very difficult and
painful to
remove. But then again,
Ms. Howe herself admits to being a former believer in the white supremacy
bilge. She apparently
slept around with several of these men at this community.
I would say that Ms.
Howe took her confidential informant duties very seriously if she was willing
to
have such an ugly tattoo
placed upon her body, as well as have sex with key players. I wonder why,
after
she became an un-believer
of white supremacy, didn't she just go away and get on with her life? Why
volunteer herself as
an ATF snitch for money?
The URL below is pretty
harsh about Ms. Howe and I only use it as a reference for the photos of
how Ms.
Howe looked undercover.
The host of this web site does not like Ms. Howe and so I have discounted
his rantings. I personally
have some problems with Ms. Howe and leopard's changing their spots. She
was
paid to be a CI. This
Eloim City operation had no legitimate income sources that I have ever
found,
although I am told that
some of the residents are long haul truck drivers. This I cannot confirm.
We
should ask the FBI or
ATF.
Ms. Howe went to extraordinary
lengths to make her illusion real. Ms. Howe's adoptive parents are
quite wealthy, so if
she was doing her thing at Eloim City as a patriotic mission and her parents
have big
bucks, how come she
took money from the ATF? The snitch in the World Trade Center bombing got
a
million bucks of our
money from the FBI to help train those terrorists. I doubt Ms. Howe was
getting that kind
of dough, but it would
be interesting to see just how much the ATF ponied up for her information.
http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/carolhowe.htm
We also have conflicting
accounts of where McVeigh was during the same time period: One from Ms.
Howe and one from Lori
Fortier who was trying to keep herself out of a federal pen when she testified
during McVeigh's first
trial (see below). Howe was later accused in a federal indictment of recording
a
bomb threat on a racist
hot line. The former fiancé, James Viefhaus Jr., 31, was convicted,
but she was
found not guilty in
a separate trial. She told jurors during her 1997 trial that she believed
herself to still
be an undercover informant.
Well, I believe in Leprechauns, don't you ken? How could someone as
savvy as her, who reported
every thirty days, not know if she was still on the payroll? If she had
any
doubts, before she called
a racist hot line to make a bomb threat, you'd think she'd make real sure
her
backside was protected.
But, Ms. Howe is a very pretty young woman and the jury believed her and
that's that.
Was Millar's duties for
the FBI to agitate and entrap others at Eloim City? Well, he was doing
something
for the feds, wasn't
he? Ms. Howe was trying to "save her country from these bad people" by
working
undercover for the ATF.
One thing I find odd about this whole confidential informant deal with
Ms.
Howe and Eloim City:
She was undercover for quite some time. Let me just give you a quote here
from
the coverage of her
trial:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1997/vo13no19/vo13no19_howe.htm
Undercover: The Howe Revelations
by a very talented write and meticulous researcher, William F. Jasper
Investigating WAR
"On August 30, 1994,
Agent Angela Finley filed her preliminary report on Carol Howe (CI-183)
and ATF
Investigation No. 53270-94-0124-B.
Entitled White Aryan Resistance, W.A.R., it states: "This is an
opening report in the
investigation of the White Aryan Resistance and the violation of federal
firearms
and conspiracy laws
in various counties in the Northern Judicial District of Oklahoma."
For all the time and
money spent by the ATF, how come nothing ever came of their investigation?
They
scored big at Ruby Ridge.
We know the FBI also had a snitch inside, how come nothing there?
Strassmeier is alleged
to have known McVeigh up in Kansas. Our boy, Andreas, certainly gets around
for
an illegal that the
FBI and ATF knew all about. The ATF put out a bulletin to pick up Strassmeier
after the
bombing. They should
have called the FBI, they knew where their boy was.
Somewhere along the way,
we have the son of a high ranking cabinet member in the German
government with very
shadowy ties and background, who finds this closed community out in the
sticks
and gets real friendly
with them. Gosh, how do all these people meet up anyhow? Well, we won't
know
from McVeigh because
he's dead.
We can't put Strassmeier
on the stand because the U.S. government made sure he got out of the United
States and back to Germany.
You can take money to the bank that neither Colin Powell nor John Ashcroft
will
ever lift a pencil to
get him extradited. After all, we wouldn't want to jeopardize our good
relations with
the German government
over something so inconsequential as bringing one of the masterminds of
this
bombing back to stand
trial, now would we?
My opinion is that this
whole aspect of the mystery is a diversion. Andreas Strassmeier wormed
his way
into white supremacist
organizations. There was a reason for that. No one in that organization
has the
muscle to keep the mystery
of the bombs removed from the building covered up to this extent. Dennis
Mahon, a player in the
Eloim City bunch, is a real piece of work. I think he believes he's a legend
in his
own mind. What can you
say about these people who are so stupid?
One thing I can say,
and it's strictly my opinion. Strassmeier got into this country, stayed
in this country
and was a protected
asset of some government black operation.
An inquiry was made by the U.S. Department of State about Herr Strassmeier:
http://www.busprod.com/hellion/okc/docs/STATED.GIF
I would ask you to go and read these reports from the ATF's snitch inside Eloim City:
http://www.busprod.com/hellion/okc/docs/strassr1.htm
The feds knew, and how
could they not with a CI for the FBI and a CI for the ATF in the same group,
who
Andreas Strassmeier
was, where he came from and that he was in the country illegally? The ATF's
own
CI reports (see URL
above, 1.11.95) states they knew he was here illegally. They knew everything
that
was going on, including
what kinds of weapons and other toys these boys had. Yet, they never touched
them. Why? What other
documents haven't been released about Eloim City?
Why the kid gloves with
this potentially dangerous group? Because I believe that in the end, it
would be
much easier to sell
a connection between McVeigh and these crazies, than any other explanation
of why
this young, decorated
former military solider went berserk. Remember: On April 19, 1995, an important
execution, as far as
these racists who belong to this WAR organization were concerned, went
down.
Richard Snell, their
former grand pooba was executed that morning in Arkansas.
Snell apparently shouted
at the 11th hour that the governor and everyone would pay for his execution.
Again, we have these
kooks who are potentially dangerous, the feds have infiltrated the joint.
They
know Snell is going
to be executed that morning, April 19th, Patriots Day. Waco Massacre Day.
An
attempt was made during
the trial to connect McVeigh with these people through calling cards.
However, if you read
the documents cited in the URL above from CI Carol Howe, how come this
big,
important player, McVeigh,
is never mentioned? From 11.24.94 - 1.11.95, no mention of McVeigh, yet
according to the feds
at McVeigh's first trial, he was all wrapped up with these dudes. The '94
time frame
is when McVeigh and
Nichols allegedly were purchasing all this bomb material stuff. There doesn't
appear to be any cross-over,
just wishful thinking by the federal prosecutors during the trial.
J.D. Cash and a few others
have focused on this Eloim City group as an intregal part of the bombing.
I say
this is a smokescreen.
Was there a middle-eastern connection? I believe so and I mentioned this
earlier.
If anyone had the ability
to put something like that together, it was Andreas Strassmeier. Herr
Strassmeier's family
connections and his documented desire to work in American intelligence
or DEA,
reeks of a set-up.
We should not underestimate
Herr Strassmeier and his ability to operate the way he did in the U.S.
and
his knowledge of arms
and explosives. What a perfect side show to be available after the building
is
blown, the bad guys
are long gone and Kirk Lyons, who ran an organization called CAUSE back
then,
helps spirit Strassmeier
out of the country. The feds knew every move these people were making.
You think
they didn't know where
Strassmeier was and how he was planning to get out of the country?
Very little has been
heard of from the group at Eloim City since Dennis Mahon testified at the
county
grand jury years ago.
I believe that he bragged when he came out of the building after testifying,
that he
"couldn't be touched."
I wouldn't know, but things have been awfully quiet down there since the
bombing. I wonder what's
really going on with these people and what kind of games the feds are playing
with them this week?
I'll give Stephen Jones
credit, he did rip apart the government's tale about phone cards and the
accuracy
of those things as it
relates to tracking calls made. McVeigh's connection to Eloim City as far
as I can find
in all these many hours
of research, is the calling card and mention by Carol Howe during her trial,
under
oath in December, 1997:
Q. Now, are you familiar with what Timothy McVeigh looks like, Ms. Howe?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you seen photographs of Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Did you ever see Timothy McVeigh at the Elhoim City compound?
A. I believe I did.
Q. All right. When did you see him?
A. It was in July of 1994.
Q. Okay. And where did you see him?
A. He was at a section of the compound walking across a lawn near the church building.
Q. And was he accompanied by any other individuals who you know?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And who were they?
A. A man named Peter Ward and a man named Andreas Strassmeier.
Q. About how far away were you when you believe you saw Timothy McVeigh?
A. Approximately 70 feet.
Q. At the time that you saw him, did you know his name was Timothy McVeigh?
A. No, sir.
Q. You subsequently came to learn his name was Timothy McVeigh?
A. Correct.
Here is where I maintain
we have a problem with the whereabouts of Tim McVeigh. Carol Howe, a paid
ATF informant, says
she saw McVeigh at the Eloim City area in July of 1994. She was fighting
for her
freedom during her trial.
During her post- bombing de-briefing, she thinks she saw McVeigh:
http://www.busprod.com/hellion/okc/docs/fbidoc.htm
You're the jury, what do you think about this confusion of who saw who and when?
Please note in the document
cited in the URL above, this is after the bombing de- briefing and after
the
ATF has done lots of
reports on CI-183, Carol Howe. In this 4.21.95 debriefing, Strassmeier
is spelled
Straysmeyer. Mahon is
spelled Mehaun. A Dr. Peter Lipron of Lawton, OK, supposedly supplied the
Eloim City crowd with
some money, communication equipment and medical supplies. But, I think
the
most relevant sentences
in this after the bombing report is this:
"Although some EC members
have suggested that they should strike the government first, Carol has
heard of no specific
plans for vengeance."
This is two days after
the bombing. These legends in their own minds are still breathing fire
and rhetoric,
but no plans are underway
for a specific strike. Lots of bluster going on here. So how did these
people
mesh with McVeigh, wire
the Murrah Building with charges on the columns inside the building --
all
without the knowledge
of this well-placed snitch?
Lori Fortier testified
at McVeigh's trial for the prosecution. She was fighting to stay free under
an
immunity agreement with
the feds. Mrs. Fortier stated the following under oath on April 27, 1997:
Q. Do you recall your next contact with McVeigh after that telephone call?
A. Yes.
Q. When was it, approximately?
A. Approximately the first part of February.
Q. What year?
A. '94.
Q. How is it that you recall that approximate date?
A. Because I remember that Tim was not there for the Super Bowl of 1994.
Q. How do you remember that?
A. Because the Bills were playing in the Super Bowl and that was his favorite team.
Q. Buffalo Bills?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall who they played?
A. They played the Cowboys.
Q. And you recall watching the game?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. He was not there in that area?
A. No, he was not.
Q. All right. How do you recall when he arrived?
A. Because he was there
for our daughter's first birthday party, which would have been Valentine's
Day of
1994.
Q. Do you recall how long he stayed during this visit?
A. Through the next summer.
Q. When he first arrived, where did he stay?
A. He stayed with us approximately for a few weeks, and then he got his own like house.
Q. When you say he got his own house, what do you mean?
A. He rented a house.
Q. Where did he rent a house?
A. It was a block house out in Golden Valley, about 10 miles outside of Kingman.
Q. Which direction from Kingman is Golden Valley?
A. South, I believe.
Q. Is that a smaller community, small city? What is that?
A. Yeah, it's like a suburb of Kingman.
Q. And you referred to a block house. What's a block house?
A. Like a concrete-block house.
Q. During the time that McVeigh had rented this block house in 1994, did you ever visit him there?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Do you recall your first visit?
A. The first time we went to visit him, Terry Nichols was there.
Q. How long had McVeigh lived in that block house, approximately?
A. A few weeks.
Q. And do you recall what happened when you visited him?
A. Yes, Terry cooked us dinner.
Q. Anything else that you remember?
A. No, not that I remember.
Q. Did you ever see Nichols in that block house again?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And do you know where Nichols' wife and child were then?
A. They were in the Philippines.
Q. Was his wife, by the way, from the Philippines?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Do you recall her name?
A. Marife.
Q. Do you recall his daughter's name?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you have any idea how long Nichols stayed in the Kingman area?
A. I'd say a couple weeks.
Q. Why do you know that?
A. Because Tim said that they were fighting and Terry moved out.**
Q. During this period
of time in the -- I was going to say the middle of '94, but you said it
was sometime
beginning before Valentine's
Day of '94 and continuing through a good portion of the summer; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. So during those months
of 1994, when McVeigh was living in the Kingman area, did he have any
employment?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Where did he work?
A. He worked at Kingman TruValue, also.
Q. Same place as your husband was working?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know what his job -- what McVeigh's job was?
A. He worked out back.
Q. Meaning what?
A. He worked in the lumberyard part of the store.
Q. Okay. What was your husband doing at that time?
A. He was working as a bookkeeper in the office.
Q. How often did you
see McVeigh during this period of time, several months in 1994, when he
was living in
the Kingman area?
A. Weekly.
Q. And for what occasions did you see him?
A. Pretty much social, just socializing.
Q. Did you consider him to be a friend at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you include him among your friends for various social activities?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What kind of things did you do together in which you included McVeigh?
A. We'd go see Michael's brother and we'd go see my friend Norma and we'd rent movies, stuff like that.
Q. Do you recall whether McVeigh had a telephone in that block house?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Do you know how he made phone calls?
A. He'd come to our house and make phone calls.
My comment here: Ms.
Howe says she thinks saw McVeigh at the Eloim City area in July 1994. Where
was this Eloim City
located? This is Ms. Howe's description of driving directions during her
trial:
Q. Ms. Howe, in the fall
of 1994, were you present on numerous occasions at the area known as Eloim
City?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And if I showed you
a map of the state of Oklahoma, could you identify for the jury where it's
located?
A. Yes, I could.
MR. THURSCHWELL: I'm
going to show the witness and the jury what's been previously admitted
as
D1801.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Now, can you -- let me back out. Do you recognize this map as a map of Oklahoma?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And I cut it
off a little bit here, but I'll extend it. And focusing in, can you see
that this is
Oklahoma City where
I'm pointing right here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now -- and then this would be Tulsa, which is where you live?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, in relation
to Tulsa, what we see here -- can you point on this map to where Eloim
City
is located?
A. It's right around in this area somewhere in there.
Q. I'm going to focus
in on that area. It's going to change where your marks are, but tell me
if I still have
the right area. Do you
see -- do you see a town that -- where Eloim City is located and a post
office
address?
A. In Muldrow, which is right there.
Q. And is Muldrow -- what is that major highway that's indicated running right next to Muldrow?
A. Interstate 40.
Q. And if you go east on Interstate 40, where do you get to? What's the first state you reach?
A. Arkansas.
Q. Okay. And if you -- what's the first major city you get to if you travel west on I-40?
A. Sallisaw, Oklahoma.
Q. And after that?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. Oklahoma City. Okay. Thank you very much. I-40 runs directly through Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir.
I got out my Atlas map
and took a look to see where this place is and it's relationship in driving
distance
to Kingman, Arizona.
Sallisaw and Muldrow are very close to the Arkansas border, clear on the
east side
of Oklahoma. Kingman,
Arizona is two states to the west, with Kingman being farther to the west.
The
driving distance from
Eloim City to Kingman is considerable.
Carol Howe says she thinks
she saw McVeigh at Eloim City in July, 1994. Lori Fortier says he was living
and working in Kingman,
Arizona at the same time, and in fact, she and her husband saw and socialized
with him weekly. So
who do we believe? Could McVeigh have decided to drive to Eloim City from
Kingman, Arizona in
July of 1994? Sure, anything is possible. Maybe he flew out there in July
1994,
although he didn't have
two nickels to rub together. The important thing is to find out which story
is
accurate.
But, you have conflicting
testimony here that no one has bothered to look into and Ms. Howe didn't
give
specifics. Although,
she could have in one of her reports to her handlers at the ATF, but we
the jurors
aren't likely to see
those documents any time soon are we?
McVeigh worked at a TruValue
store during this time. You could check his employment records to see if
he had a window of opportunity
to drive to the Arkansas border from Kingman in order to validate Ms.
Howe's placing McVeigh
at Elhoim City during the targeted time period.
Terry Nichols owned a
farm in Herington, Kansas where he was arrested. He turned himself in when
he
discovered that he was
someone the feds wanted to speak to about the bombing. Again, there seems
to be
some confusion as to
dates and who lived where. Recall what Lori Fortier says about Terry Lynn
Nichols
living with McVeigh:
McVeigh got to Kingman sometime around Valentine's Day and thereafter,
Nichols
came to live at McVeigh's
rented house. Lori Fortier claims Nichols lived at McVeigh's house for
a few
weeks, but then left
because they were fighting with each other. Yet, during Nichols trial,
the
prosecution states this
during his opening statement:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/okc.trial/transcripts/November/110397.am.txt
"Instead, by early 1994,
Tim McVeigh had settled in Kingman, Arizona, a small town near the western
border of Arizona and
Nevada. Terry Nichols lived briefly with Tim McVeigh in Kingman and then
in
early 1994 moved to
Marion, Kansas, central Kansas. But as you will learn, distance did not
separate
these two men for long.
In fact, during the late summer 1994, Tim McVeigh traveled from Kingman
to
Arizona -- excuse me
-- to Kansas and lived with Terry Nichols and his family.
"Tim McVeigh was still
there in Kansas in mid September of 1994 when Terry Nichols' wife and his
daughter left this country
and returned to the Philippines. His wife and daughter did not return to
this
country for the next
six months. Their departure left Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh alone and
together
in Marion, Kansas, and
that combination of time and place begins a series of events spelled out
in the
grand jury's indictment.
"September 1994 marks
the time and central Kansas marks the place where Terry Nichols and Tim
McVeigh took their first
steps in their plan to attack the federal government. They began with their
commitment to each other
and Tim McVeigh's attempt to recruit a third person, a man named Michael
Fortier, into their
plan."
* * *
We have some jumbled
time lines here between Carol Howe, Lori Fortier and the feds during Nichols
trial. We also have
the ATF 30-day reports of Howe's activities inside the Eloim City. Lots
of fiery talk. A
German national illegally
residing in the states; an individual with a very suspect background and
desire
to work in the shadowy
world of government intelligence, for the U.S. government.
Jane Graham, who I have
spoken about before, states in her live affidavit that she saw a McVeigh
in the
Murrah Building the
day before the bombing. You saw in one of my prior pieces, an uncanny photo
comparison of McVeigh
and an unidentified ATF agent (scroll down about half way):
http://www.devvy.com/graham_20010526.html
Strassmeier allegedly,
and long after the fact, claims he met McVeigh at a gun show. I can't tell
you how
many people I have met
at guns shows while collecting signatures for ballot initiatives.
Apparently McVeigh once
got a ticket about 20 miles from the property marked off by the Eloim City
people and that is something
I cannot explain except to say recall what Trooper Hanger said during his
testimony: McVeigh told
him at the time of the arrest that he was moving to Arkansas, had taken
a load
of stuff already and
was on his way back. It could be that he got that ticket while looking
for where he
wanted to move to in
Arkansas. There are lots of reasons. Unfortunately, we'll never know because
the
one person who could
tell us is dead.
Whether getting a ticket
years earlier near Eloim City translates into being part of a conspiracy
and
blowing up a building,
you will have to decide for yourself. From all that was written about the
Eloim
City people, they appeared
to do a lot of huffing, puffing and threatening about blowing up federal
buildings, especially
OKC, but a lot of this comes from Carol Howe. I have seen and heard a lot
in the
past ten plus years.
A lot of huffing and puffing out there in America. I have not seen the
threatened
violence materialize
and hope I never do from any of these people.
In any event, there was
a lot of activity regarding this group of people. The feds, both agencies,
apparently felt it was
more fun to play games with them than anything else. I believe that the
upcoming
report by Charles Key
places a large part of the focus on Eloim City and the players, but I have
only read
the summary to date
since it is not yet released:
http://www.camorsepublishing.com/summary_okc_investigation.html
Charles Key and his dedicated
researchers and investigators have spent years on this murder. They have
access to information
I do not. I have not read this report, but will get a copy when it becomes
available.
It may change my mind
on the importance of the Eloim City crowd. It may not. But, every clue,
every
participant, every oddity,
all must be taken into consideration when you're attempting to solve mystery.
It is my understanding
that when a jury considers evidence in a case based solely on circumstantial
evidence, if one link
in the chain is broken, the circumstantial case is broken.
These groups like Eloim
City are prime fodder for the compromised media and the alphabet soup
agencies of the government.
Their mouthpieces, along with the compromised media, go to great lengths
to make connections
between "anti- government" groups and violence. How transparent, yet the
average
Joe out there who gets
all their "news" from the big networks (ABC, etc.), swallow this bilge
like a kid
with a slurpee.
Carol Howe:
http://www.busprod.com/hellion/okc/docs.htm
Others Who Claim Government Had Prior Knowledge/Additional Information on bombing:
http://www.4bypass.com/archives/July-99.htm
Did you read anything
in Hartzler's opening statement of the first trial about Eloim City? How
come the
government ignored all
the activities and goings-on there during McVeigh's trial? How come Judge
Richard Matsch would
not allow Carol Howe to testify at McVeigh's trial? A man's life was at
stake. The
defense had a right
to attempt to show that someone else could have been responsible. No. Instead,
the
feds come up with this
drifter, because basically that's what McVeigh was, who is a "political
animal."
He's broke, always living
here and there. He has a military background. He has a friend who owns
a farm
and the two of them
cook up this weapon of mass destruction and their key, star witnesses are
a pair of
losers and dopers to
boot: Lori and Michael Fortier.
The issue of Andreas
Strassmeier is a very important one. Stephen Jones should have fought all
the way
to the U.S. Supreme
Court to force Janet Waco Reno's Department of InJustice to get this guy
extradited
back to the United States.
Should Strassmeier be found guilty in a court of law, those who assisted
in
getting him out of the
country should be charged with obstruction of justice. Strassmeier is a
key player
and a very bad, ugly
person. Information on this man:
http://www.jps.net/triumph/gaa21.htm
Was there a middle-Eastern
connection? I believe there was, simply for the purpose of using individuals
from terrorist cells
who could get in and out of the U.S. and never be traced back to the masterminds
behind the bombing.
I believe, and you can make up your own mind, that the Eloim City crowd
was used.
They were infiltrated.
They were supplied weapons and training on how to use them. They had snitches,
baby- sitters, on the
inside. It was a grand old time for these "leaders" who think so highly
of themselves
and their racist agenda.
But, the placement of
explosive charges inside that building was not done by a bunch of fat,
weekend
warriors who live out
in the sticks playing grand pooba's of the racist underground. This murder
was well
planned and well timed
to achieve maximum results.
Stephen Jones did file
a Petition for Writ of Mandamus of Petitioner-Defendant, Timothy James
McVeigh
and Brief in Support,
March 25, 1997, but he got stonewalled all the way. I'll give him a little
bit of credit
for making the appearance
of an effort:
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mcveigh/part01.htm
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mcveigh/part05.htm
What is the government
hiding? A lot. There is one piece of crucial evidence that could blow the
lid off
this whole thing: The
surveillance video from the camera that was located on the front of the
Southwestern Bell Building
directly across the street from the Murrah Building and pointed right at
the
crime scene.
For almost a year, the
Justice Department's lawyers have fought tooth and nail in court to have
a
Freedom of Information
Act lawsuit dismissed. This FOIA suit is to get 23 pieces of tape the FBI
confiscated from surveillance
cameras at the Murrah Building and some of the other buildings in close
proximity to the crime
scene. Why is the government, now Ashcroft's DoJ, fighting so hard to keep
this
evidence secret? This
film alone would prove opportunity for McVeigh and establish once and for
all his physical
being in front of the
building that morning.
If that video film from
the Southwestern Bell Building showed Tim McVeigh, either alone or with
others,
getting out of that
Ryder truck and walking away, we would have seen it on TV a million times
already, just
like the Rodney King
video. If that video film the feds are hiding showed McVeigh, either alone
or with
others, getting out
of that Ryder truck and walking away, the U.S. government would have used
it in the
first trial. There would
have been no need to go through the horse and pony show, the video would
have
proved their case beyond
a shadow of a doubt - if you ignore the physical evidence, i.e. the truck
bomb
could not have blown
the building up.
The fact that the feds
continue to fight to keep all of these video tapes under wraps speaks louder
than this
entire piece. My money
also says somewhere on those videos you will clearly see there is no crater
in
front of the building.
On those videos the world would see the truth: the sequence of explosions
as the whole
thing happened. That
is why the feds won't turn over the videos. Take money to the bank on it.
You can also
take money to the bank
because I'll bet the feds deny the existence of any film or that it has
disappeared.
Bet.
The government's star
witness against McVeigh was Michael Fortier and his wife, Lori. A pair
of meth
freaks who not only
used, but sold. I realize that in certain instances, the prosecution has
to make deals
with bottom-feeders
like these two, but in this case, the Fortier's cooperation with the feds
was strictly
for self-preservation.
I believe the two of them lied under oath and their testimonies are simply
worthless and meaningless
as far as credibility. But, that doesn't mean you shouldn't read the trial
transcripts so that
you can make up your own mind.
The Defendant
Decorated military soldier or mastermind of a mass murder?
Every defendant, even
the one accused in the OKC bombing, is supposed to be given the presumption
of
innocence. Unfortunately,
this wasn't possible in McVeigh or Nichols' cases. You have read McVeigh's
military history. He
was a model soldier and proud to serve. He had fallen on hard times financially.
The feds say he and Nichols
robbed to get money to finance their master plan to strike back at the
government. Considering
the track record of the government in this case, can we really believe
them on
this and rely on the
analysis of evidence, i.e., locks and drills? McVeigh was so poor, he relied
on junker
cars that barely ran
to put together his huge truck bomb. Somehow he came up with almost three
hundred dollars in cash
to rent the truck, even though he looked like he didn't eat many square
meals. I
guess he saved all his
robbery money from the year before.
I have said this from
day one right up until this time: If Timothy James McVeigh was guilty of
using a truck
bomb that defied all
the laws of science and nature to blow up the Murrah Building and kill
168 people,
then justice has been
served.
If the Department of
Justice, now under the stewardship of John Ashcroft, is hiding videos that
will show
us the event as it unfolded,
they must be released immediately. It's the only way we can be sure a patsy
wasn't executed and
all the conspiracy theories will go away. Many people believe McVeigh wasn't
executed, that he was
a government player and was spirited out of the country. I don't believe
this
because there's nothing
more dangerous than a loose cannon showing up five years down the road.
Dead
is better. The old Mafia
dons used to give the kiss of death to their own. Everyone is expendable
so the
players at the top of
the heap remain untouchable.
If Timothy James McVeigh
did drive a yellow Ryder truck to the front of the building and a homemade
truck bomb destroyed
cars, property and took anyone's life within striking distance, then that
is what he
should have been charged
with and a trial held. Those video reels being hidden by the DoJ will show
us
the truth.
If Timothy James McVeigh
committed robberies of any kind, then that's what he should have been
charged with and a trial
held.
But, he confessed? Right? Did he?
This part of my closing
argument is by far the most difficult for me to do. My credibility is everything
and
I've worked very hard
to establish my reputation as a person who does their homework and doesn't
knee-jerk to every conspiracy
theory that comes off the Internet. I carefully study whatever the issue
or
"disaster" is and go
from there. But, we may as well get to it.
As I have said before,
I highly recommend that you read the trial from start to finish as a whole,
but time
shortage being what
it is, I have highlighted just these few. You can review all the transcripts
of the trial
at the URL below:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/okc.trial/transcripts/mcveigh.html
As I have said throughout
this work, always go back to the beginning for answers and work forward.
I
would like you to pay
particular attention to the testimony of Trooper Charlie Hanger, the law
enforcement officer
who arrested McVeigh on April 19, 1995. McVeigh's behavior is glaringly
inconsistent
with someone who had
just murdered 168 people. It simply makes no sense. This is a portion of
Hanger's
testimony on direct
(from the government prosecutor), April 28, 1997:
Q. Step by step, can
you tell the ladies and gentlemen what happened just prior to the time
that you
stopped this car.
A. I was northbound on
Interstate 35 in the left-hand lane, and I passed that vehicle. As I was
passing by
it, I noticed that it
was not displaying a tag; so I slowed down, got in behind it. It was in
the right lane, I
was in the left lane.
And I pulled in behind that vehicle and initiated my emergency lights signaling
for it
to pull over.
Q. And this is in the northbound lane going towards Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. At about 10:20 that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. And what side of the road did the vehicle pull over? Did the vehicle pull over?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. On what side of the road?
A. On the right shoulder of the roadway.
Q. What did you do?
A. I pulled up behind
the vehicle. And as I was pulling up approaching the vehicle, I was watching
the
driver. And appeared
to be only one occupant, the driver. I stopped my vehicle approximately
20 feet
behind the Mercury.
And I was offset to the Mercury, I was 3 to 4 feet further to the west
or the left than
the Mercury was. He
was partially in the grass and partially on the shoulder. I was all on
the shoulder.
Q. Now, after both vehicles were stopped, what happened?
A. I took my seat belt
off, opened the car door, observed that the Mercury door was open. I got
out,
stood behind my door.
As I was getting out, the driver of the Mercury's feet came out the door.
There
was a slight pause,
a couple of seconds, and then the driver stood up. I was able to see both
his hands,
and he started walking
toward me.
Q. Now, at this time
were you still standing behind your car door? Was your car door between
yourself
and that driver?
A. Yes.
Q. Look around the courtroom and tell us if you see the individual who was driving that car.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you point him out and describe an article of his clothing?
A. He's the gentleman
in the blue shirt, has a black watch, dark hair, sitting at the table there
next to the
lady with the black
and white jacket.
MR. MENDELOFF: Let the
record reflect the identification of the defendant, Timothy McVeigh, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. What was the reason you stayed behind your car door throughout this time?
A. My car door affords me some protection in the event that anything violent might occur.
Q. Were you particularly focused on this issue at this point?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What was the reason for that?
A. Exactly two weeks
to the day prior to this, we'd had a trooper involved in a shooting on
Interstate 35,
not 15 miles from where
I was making this stop.
Q. All right. Now, after Defendant McVeigh started walking toward you, what did you do?
A. I stepped out from behind my door and also walked toward him.
Q. Did you meet him at some point?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. At a point 3 to 4 feet south of the left corner of his car and then 3 to 4 feet west.
Q. So this would have been behind the driver's side back corner of the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let me ask you
to look at Government Exhibits 411, 412, 413, and 414 in the sheaf of papers
in
front of you. All four,
please.
A. Okay.
Q. What are those photos?
A. These are the photographs of the car that I stopped that morning.
Q. Do they fairly and
accurately depict the appearance of Defendant McVeigh's Mercury when you
stopped him a little
before 10:20 a.m. on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, they do.
MR. MENDELOFF: Your Honor, we'd move the admission of Government Exhibits 411 through 414.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, Trooper Hanger, did you take these photographs?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And do you know whether they were taken on the day of the arrest or sometime thereafter?
A. Sometime thereafter.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government Exhibit 414.
MR. MENDELOFF: May I publish it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. First, with your light
pen, could you please point out for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury
the
primer spot that you
were referring to.
And if you could clear that, please.
Where in relation to
the back driver's side corner of the car did you meet with Defendant McVeigh
at
that point?
A. It probably doesn't
show enough of the distance, but it would be back over in this area and
then back
toward me.
Q. Can you point out where it is? Right about there; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Off the picture?
A. Yes.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor,
could we have a copy of that photograph, please? Of the drawing that was
on
that.
THE COURT: Has it already been cleared?
MR. MENDELOFF: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You'll have to go a little faster.
MS. RAMSEY: Okay.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Direct your attention to Government Exhibit 411. What is that?
A. That's the same automobile looking at it from the front.
Q. 412?
A. Also the same automobile looking at it from the rear.
Q. And 413?
A. And that is the same automobile looking from the right side.
Q. When you met with
Defendant McVeigh at a point near the rear of his car, did you have a
conversation with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Who spoke first?
A. I did.
Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what you said to Defendant McVeigh.
A. I told him the reason I stopped him was because he wasn't displaying a tag.
Q. Did he make any physical movement at that point?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he do?
A. He looked back at the back of the vehicle, of his vehicle.
Q. Toward what area?
A. Toward the bumper area.
Q. Was there a tag there?
A. No.
Q. At that point, did Defendant McVeigh offer any statement?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said he hadn't had the vehicle very long and didn't have a tag.
Q. And did he say how he had obtained it?
A. Pardon?
Q. Did he say how he had obtained it?
A. He had purchased it.
Q. Did you ask him any questions about the purchase?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you ask him?
A. I asked him if he could produce a bill of sale.
Q. And his response?
A. He said, no; that the person that he had purchased it from was still filling it out.
Q. Did you ask him anything else?
A. I said, "How long does it take to fill out a bill of sale?"
Q. What did he say?
A. "I don't have one with me."
Q. Did ask you him for anything at that point?
A. Yes. I asked him for his driver's license.
Q. What did he do?
A. He went to his right
rear pocket and produced a camouflage-colored billfold and took his driver's
license from it.
Q. Now, as he reached
for his billfold, in his right rear pocket, can you describe to the ladies
and
gentlemen of the jury
physically how did he this?
A. Turned like this, reached into his pocket.
Q. As Defendant McVeigh
reached for his driver's license, did you notice anything out of the ordinary
underneath his clothing?
A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. I noticed a bulge
under his left arm. He was wearing a jacket, and it was -- there was a
bulge under his
left arm, in this area
right here.
Q. What type of jacket?
A. It was a light wind breaker-type jacket.
Q. After Defendant McVeigh took out his wallet, did he hand you anything?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he hand you?
A. His driver's license.
Q. Let me ask you to look at Government Exhibit 427.
MR. MENDELOFF: Your Honor, maybe we could do it with the other --
THE COURT: Well, that doesn't seem to be working.
THE WITNESS: I found it.
THE COURT: Do you have it, 427?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. MENDELOFF: He's got it.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. What is Government Exhibit 427?
A. That is a Michigan driver's license in the name of Timothy James McVeigh.
Q. And do you recognize this driver's license?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you recognize it as?
A. That appears to be the same driver's license that was given to me that morning.
Q. Do you discern any difference in it from the last time you saw it?
A. No.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government Exhibit 427.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, 427.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, after Defendant McVeigh produced his driver's license, did you instruct him to do anything?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you instruct him to do?
A. I told him to take both hands and to slowly pull back his jacket.
Q. Okay. Physically, what did he do?
A. His jacket was zipped just a little bit. He unzipped it and began pulling it back.
Q. As he did that, did he make any remark?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, "I have a gun."
Q. What did you do at that point?
A. At that point, I reached
for the bulge in the jacket. I grabbed it with my left hand and instructed
him,
"Get your hands up and
turn around."
Q. All right. And as you did that, what did you do with your right hand?
A. I pulled my weapon, and I stuck it to the back of his head.
Q. Did you give him any instructions?
A. Yes. I said, "Walk to the back of your car."
Q. Did you keep your weapon in the