(Part IV)
[This material is copyrighted]
Devvy Kidd
June 25, 2001
I would urge you to read
all of Trooper Hanger's testimony as it is critical to understand McVeigh's
state
of mind at the time
of his arrest, his cooperation and what was and wasn't found during the
arrest, i.e. no
dates on notes and signs.
McVeigh has been placed
in Junction City, Kansas before the bombing with a yellow Ryder truck.
A few
days later, close to
the cut-off to Arkansas, but traveling north instead of south if he were
going to take
the cut-off, he is pulled
over by Trooper Hanger. He tells Trooper Hanger that he was moving to
Arkansas, had taken
a load of stuff there and was on his way back to Arkansas.
We have more sightings:
There is another witness who saw McVeigh in OKC after the bombing
displaying some very
strange behavior not consistent with someone 27 years old who likes to
watch
cartoons. This McVeigh
came off as one would expect from a cold-blooded killer. This is an excerpt
from Carol Howe's trial:
DIRECT EXAMINATION of Germaine Johnston
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Good morning, Mrs. Johnston.
A. Good morning.
Q. Mrs. Johnston, are you employed by the federal government?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Were you in the Murrah Building at 9:02 a.m. in the morning on that day?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were you injured in the blast?
A. I was -- I had some
glass embedded in my scalp, and I had some cuts, and I had some ear and
lung
problems right afterwards;
but my injuries were very minor, relatively.
Q. What -- the ear and lung problems, do you know what that was caused by?
A. I think it was caused
by the pressure of the bomb forcing things into my ear and then -- the
lung
problem, I had pleurisy
several times, was caused by the walking down the stairway and inhaling
all of the
glasses and pulverized
concrete and all of those things that were in the stairwell.
Q. Were you treated that day for your injuries?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you released that day?
A. Yes.
Q. Ma'am, I'm going to
show you what's been previously admitted as Government Exhibit G940. Now,
were you able to get
out of the Murrah Building that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you show the
jury on the map, using the pen that's connected to a wire on your desk
-- there
should be one -- that's
the one. And then if you reach under -- You have to reach under and actually
touch the screen.
A. Oh, okay.
Q. Can you show them where you emerged from the Murrah Building?
A. Right here on the south side out of the east stairwell.
Q. Okay. And onto the plaza area there?
A. Yes. Out onto the plaza area.
Q. Do you know what time you got -- managed to get out of the building?
A. I'm not sure. I think it was 5 or 10 minutes after the blast.
Q. Okay. Now, did you have a particular concern when you emerged apart from your own injuries and --
A. Well, first, our first
thought was that we were supposed to go over to where our group would meet.
We had evacuation drills
for emergencies; and when we would leave the building, we were supposed
to
go across on Robinson
-- this is going up a little bit here -- we were to go across on Robinson
and meet
in a certain spot. So
Bob Smart and I walked over there to meet people, and there was nobody
else there
from our agency.
Q. When you got there, did you eventually decide to try to find your husband?
A. Yes. Well, not from
there. From there we walked up to 5th Street and over in front of the Y.
We
thought maybe some of
our people might be over here. And we walked over there, and there were
medical people set up
and things like that.
But Bob's wife, Terry
Rees, had worked in this part of the building, and he was concerned about
her; and
she was killed. But
he decided he was going to go back over in front of the building and see
if there was
word about her. And
I decided that I needed to go down to the Kerr-McGee building where my
husband
works and find him.
Q. Okay. Now, then can
you pause. Can you see -- is the Kerr-McGee building marked in any way
on
this -- I'm sorry.
A. No, it's down here. It's down here on the McGee Avenue.
Q. And is it actually on that block?
A. Oh, is it on -- it's right here.
Q. It is. Okay.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Tell the jury how you proceeded to go to that building.
A. Okay. There's an alley
-- there's an alley that doesn't show on this map. You can see it up here
between 5th and 6th
Street, but -- right here.
Q. Can you show --
A. You can see it right here. But it actually goes all the way through here.
Q. How far --
A. Between the two Southwestern
Bell buildings and to the Kerr-McGee plaza; and from where I was,
that would be the shortest
way to get to McGee Tower.
Q. Did you take that route down the alley?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you have an encounter with someone that stood out in your mind?
A. Yes, I did. When I
got down here, to the Southwestern Bell property, there was a car sitting
facing
north, and there were
two young men standing by it. And as -- approached them.
Q. Let me just stop you there and try to get a time.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you know about how long after the bombing that would have been?
A. My estimate would
be that it was 20 or 25 minutes afterwards. I think between 9:25 and 9:35
or
something like that.
Q. Okay. Now, you said that there were two young men that you saw?
A. Uh-huh, there were
two men standing by the passenger side of this car. It was yellow car.
It was
parked in the alley,
close to this building right here, facing north; and they were standing
by the driver's
door.
Q. It was -- could you show -- point in the direction? Which direction is north on this map?
A. I can't figure out how this thing works here. That's north.
Q. Okay. The direction of the arrow?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, did you recognize the type of car?
A. It was a Mercury.
Q. How do you know that?
A. My husband and I used to drive a Mercury, about that same age and about that same color.
Q. What model, year model was your Mercury?
A. '77.
Q. What color was this Mercury?
A. It was faded yellow.
Q. Okay. Was it a four-door?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the two young men that you mentioned: Did you get a look at either or both of them?
A. I'm not -- not that I could describe them in detail; but one -- one was tall and one was shorter.
Q. Did you have any conversation with either of them?
A. Yes. As I -- as I
walked -- as I approached them, it was obvious that I had come out of the
building
because I was covered
with pulverized concrete, I think, and I was wet because the pipes had
broken. My
hair was wet and everything.
It was obvious I had come out of there. And as I got close to them, the
tallest one said, "What
happened?" And I said, "There was an explosion in the federal building."
Q. And what did he say?
A. And he said, "A lot of people killed?"
Q. And how did you respond?
A. I just -- I said I didn't know. I said, "I don't know." And just walked on.
Q. Did anything strike you as unusual about that exchange at that time?
A. Yes. Because I thought
he was going to ask me if he could help me or if I was okay or something,
which several people
had already done that. And it really surprised me that he just wanted to
know how
many people were killed.
Q. From what you could tell, did he appear to be concerned about the number of people killed?
A. No. No. He just wanted to know.
Q. Okay. From that position that you marked on the map, can you see the Murrah Building?
A. Yes. There is a clear view from right here. There is a clear view over to the Murrah Building.
Q. Is that true from the entire length of that alley?
A. No. You'd have to
be just about in that spot to be able to see the Murrah Building. If you
get further
back, it's blocked by
buildings.
Q. Mrs. Johnston, did
there come a time when you realized that you could identify the individual
who
you had some conversation
with?
A. Yes. When I saw Timothy
McVeigh on television, it just instantly -- I realized that he was the
person I
had talked to in the
alley.
Q. You were immediately struck with that thought?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, could you describe the other individual that you saw that day?
A. Not in -- not in any detail. Just that he was shorter and darker.
Q. Shorter and darker than Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you remember anything about his build?
A. Not really.
Q. Do you recall speaking to the FBI about this interview -- about this encounter in August of 1995?
A. Yes.
Q. If I showed you a
report of your interview, might that refresh your recollection as to your
picture of
the individual?
A. It might.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Your Honor, I'm showing the witness 302 9458.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. THURSCHWELL: And I'm indicating the fourth and final paragraph on the first page.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Does that refresh your recollection as you sit here today about the appearance of the individual?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. But that was two years ago. So that must be what I remembered then.
Q. Okay. If it doesn't refresh your recollection today, we won't ask you about it.
MR. THURSCHWELL: A moment, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Mrs. Johnston, did
you eventually see on television sketches of other -- of another individual
or
individuals that were
commonly referred to as John Doe No. 2?
A. Yes, yes, I did.
Q. Did -- to the best
of your recollection, did you have the same shock of recognition about
the other
individual when you
saw those?
A. No.
Q. But you did when you saw the photographic image of Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes.
MR. THURSCHWELL: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Ryan.
MR. RYAN: Thank you, your Honor.
* * *
You can look at McVeigh's car here:
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/current/April/exb412.jpg
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/current/April/exb413.jpg
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/current/April/exb414.jpg
You will notice on the
driver's side of the car, there is huge discoloration and rust. There is
no mention
of this in Mrs. Johnston's
testimony above because she is standing on the passenger side of the car
and
probably did not walk
around the other side to see this distinguishing discoloration. There was
no
mention in her testimony
of doing so.
Tom Manning, who sold
McVeigh the Mercury, did not testify in court, it was done through a video
deposition. After a
year and a half, he changed his original statements. Since we do not have
access to the
video deposition, we
can't see if he spoke of the color discoloration on the car. Information
on this
testimony can be found
at:
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/dailytx/052997p/CLOSINGARGUMENT29thMaypm12.html
http://www.execpc.com/~jfish/na/030397n3.txt
The car now becomes a very important piece of evidence.
The other critical statement during Mrs. Johnston's testimony that must be considered is this:
She states that she approached
this yellow '77 Mercury approximately 20-25 minutes after the bombing.
That would make it somewhere
between 9:25am and 9:35am in her words. That is her testimony.
These are very, very
important minutes. Why? Because Trooper Hanger stated in his testimony
that he
pulled McVeigh over,
it was approximately 10:20 am. According to his log for that day, it says
he called in
the arrest at 10:22
am:
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/current/april/exb415.jpg
On May 20, 1995, I drove
from the Murrah Building to the spot where McVeigh was arrested. According
to the feds, McVeigh
drove it in 75 minutes.
McVeigh allegedly left
the Ryder truck at 9:00 am, walked quickly away and 1 hr and 20 minutes
later, he
was pulled over. That
can be done if you drove straight as the crow flies.
Even if McVeigh walked
straight to his get-away car, the Murrah Building was not sitting next
to the
freeway on-ramp. Precious
minutes would be eaten up getting to I-35 north. Trooper Hanger says
McVeigh was not speeding
when he approached him. Could he have been speeding before that?
Certainly, but it would
not have been wise to attract the attention of any law enforcement in the
area.
Now, let's go back to
Mrs. Johnston. She says she spoke with McVeigh and another man at roughly
9:25-9:35 am. She testified
that she approached them, they were just standing there on the driver's
side.
She spoke with them
and then moved on. What a minute? Less?
The question is how long
did this McVeigh and the other unidentified man continue to stand there?
Did they
get in this yellow car
and leave? Did the unidentified man leave then and then this McVeigh get
in his car
and take off? We don't
know.
One thing I do know:
If it was 9:25-9:35 am and McVeigh was standing around near the building,
there
simply is no way, without
traveling at a high speed all the way, that McVeigh could have made it
to marker
202-203 where Trooper
Hanger stopped him at 10:20 am. Remember, Trooper Hanger says he stopped
him at 10:20, but he
passed McVeigh first and then dropped back. All this eats up precious minutes
before his stated pull-over
time of 10:20 am.
McVeigh would have had
to leave the minute Mrs. Johnston walked away, hurry to I- 35, which would
have drawn a lot of
attention, some one fleeing instead of sticking around to help, and race
up I-35 to
travel 75 miles in the
45 minutes left to him based on Mrs. Johnston's testimony. Could you drive
75 miles in
45 minutes? This means
getting to the freeway through the massive mess and heading out at a very
high
speed.
The time line doesn't
work. Mrs. Johnston was a victim. It's unlikely she would want to mislead
anyone
during her testimony
to protect McVeigh. This not only establishes very reasonable doubt, it
also puts us
once again with two
McVeigh look-alikes.
More than 10,000 signatures
were collected so that former Oklahoma State Rep. Charles Key could
convene a county grand
jury to investigate this bombing. He was skewered by Gov. Frank Keating
and
every newspaper in town
for attempting to get to the truth. 10,000 people in the city where this
horrific
act of terrorism smelled
a rat after the bombing and just wanted the truth. Could all of them be
anti-government, right-wing
wackos?
Below is a memo from
survivor, Jane Graham. Why has the government consistently refused to conduct
a real investigation
into the bombing?
I now rest on this point.
The court transcripts will lend further doubt as to whether or not Timothy
James McVeigh was in
Oklahoma City that morning, er, which Tim McVeigh was that now?
Motive
This has been covered
to the point of ad nauseam. McVeigh hated the government. He hated what
happened at Ruby Ridge
and Waco, so he set out to murder a bunch of innocent people to send a
message to the government.
He read "anti-government" literature, which included copies of the U.S.
Constitution and other
historical writings. He went to gun shows. The media saturation on this
defendant with the intention
of demonizing him and his political beliefs is well covered in the trial
transcripts, so there's
not much to add here except to comment on the Eloim City connection.
Much of the speculation
about this bombing has focused on this group of people. While I find their
religious and political
beliefs despicable, it's the way they believe and under the First Amendment
they
have the right to believe
what they want. My question is: How come the feds have left these potentially
dangerous people alone?
Actually, the vast majority
of the American people have heard very little about the OKC bombing and
even less about this
Eloim City. Huh, you say?
Most of America heard
the coverage from ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN the day of the bombing and for
about
a week thereafter. They
followed what was printed in their local newspaper. They saw McVeigh in
his
orange jump suit over
and over, just like the Rodney King beating film. Most of America heard
a snippet
here and there about
McVeigh's trial, conviction and sentencing, because that's how the compromised
media feeds America
the spoonfuls of what they want them to see.
In the Denver, CO., area
where McVeigh's trial was conducted, we got heavy coverage on the evening
news, but it was mostly
the same regurgitated film clips with some commentary. Upon McVeigh's
conviction, most breathed
a collective sigh of relief that another anti-government right-wing wacko
was
going to "get what he
deserves."
Most of America saw the
survivors and families of the victims with their raw hurt and anger. Our
hearts
bleed for them. Most
of America saw the saturation coverage of McVeigh's execution. From these
carefully chosen snippets
served up daily, America rests comfortably tonight knowing that the
self-confessed OKC lone-bomber
is now dead and justice has been served.
While it's hard to estimate
a percentage, I would say that a few million people have closely followed
OKC as well TWA Flight
800, Ron Brown and other "tragedies." If you're not up to speed on the
Eloim
City/Howe saga, I would
direct you to the URL below. It is an accurate compilation of the Eloim
City
crowd and the ATF and
FBI's informants who, unbeknownst to either agency, both had undercover
snitches inside. Rev.
Robert Millar for the FBI. Carol Howe for ATF.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1997/vo13no19/vo13no19_howe.htm
Here is some of Ms. Howe's testimony during her trial:
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/dailytx/121097a/CarolHoweCrossExamination1.html
http://www.okcitytrial.com/content/dailytx/121097a/CarolHoweDirectExamination.html
The FBI had the good
Rev. Robert Millar on their team. He's was the spiritual guru there at
the time.
During Carol Howe's
trial, the courtroom went nuts when a senior FBI agent confirmed that Millar
was a
CI (confidential informant).
Oh, my. I don't know what the good Reverend does these days since I have
no interest in that
crowd other than wishing they would go away.
Eloim City is described
as a para-military group that hosts very nasty Neo-Nazi types. As long
as they do
not break any laws or
hurt anyone, hopefully their sick ideology will die out with them. We should
also
be concerned how the
feds are using this group of undesirables and have crimes been committed
by
these jokers and covered
up by the feds? That whole situation stinks to high heaven.
At the same time the
role of Rev. Millar is exposed, we find out that the ATF has a Ms. Carol
Howe in
the same group hunkered
down in the mountains. Ms. Howe took her under cover work so seriously,
she had a big old Nazi
tattoo done on her arm. As we all know, tattoos are very difficult and
painful to
remove. But then again,
Ms. Howe herself admits to being a former believer in the white supremacy
bilge. She apparently
slept around with several of these men at this community.
I would say that Ms.
Howe took her confidential informant duties very seriously if she was willing
to
have such an ugly tattoo
placed upon her body, as well as have sex with key players. I wonder why,
after
she became an un-believer
of white supremacy, didn't she just go away and get on with her life? Why
volunteer herself as
an ATF snitch for money?
The URL below is pretty
harsh about Ms. Howe and I only use it as a reference for the photos of
how Ms.
Howe looked undercover.
The host of this web site does not like Ms. Howe and so I have discounted
his rantings. I personally
have some problems with Ms. Howe and leopard's changing their spots. She
was
paid to be a CI. This
Eloim City operation had no legitimate income sources that I have ever
found,
although I am told that
some of the residents are long haul truck drivers. This I cannot confirm.
We
should ask the FBI or
ATF.
Ms. Howe went to extraordinary
lengths to make her illusion real. Ms. Howe's adoptive parents are
quite wealthy, so if
she was doing her thing at Eloim City as a patriotic mission and her parents
have big
bucks, how come she
took money from the ATF? The snitch in the World Trade Center bombing got
a
million bucks of our
money from the FBI to help train those terrorists. I doubt Ms. Howe was
getting that kind
of dough, but it would
be interesting to see just how much the ATF ponied up for her information.
http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/carolhowe.htm
We also have conflicting
accounts of where McVeigh was during the same time period: One from Ms.
Howe and one from Lori
Fortier who was trying to keep herself out of a federal pen when she testified
during McVeigh's first
trial (see below). Howe was later accused in a federal indictment of recording
a
bomb threat on a racist
hot line. The former fiancé, James Viefhaus Jr., 31, was convicted,
but she was
found not guilty in
a separate trial. She told jurors during her 1997 trial that she believed
herself to still
be an undercover informant.
Well, I believe in Leprechauns, don't you ken? How could someone as
savvy as her, who reported
every thirty days, not know if she was still on the payroll? If she had
any
doubts, before she called
a racist hot line to make a bomb threat, you'd think she'd make real sure
her
backside was protected.
But, Ms. Howe is a very pretty young woman and the jury believed her and
that's that.
Was Millar's duties for
the FBI to agitate and entrap others at Eloim City? Well, he was doing
something
for the feds, wasn't
he? Ms. Howe was trying to "save her country from these bad people" by
working
undercover for the ATF.
One thing I find odd about this whole confidential informant deal with
Ms.
Howe and Eloim City:
She was undercover for quite some time. Let me just give you a quote here
from
the coverage of her
trial:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1997/vo13no19/vo13no19_howe.htm
Undercover: The Howe Revelations
by a very talented write and meticulous researcher, William F. Jasper
Investigating WAR
"On August 30, 1994,
Agent Angela Finley filed her preliminary report on Carol Howe (CI-183)
and ATF
Investigation No. 53270-94-0124-B.
Entitled White Aryan Resistance, W.A.R., it states: "This is an
opening report in the
investigation of the White Aryan Resistance and the violation of federal
firearms
and conspiracy laws
in various counties in the Northern Judicial District of Oklahoma."
For all the time and
money spent by the ATF, how come nothing ever came of their investigation?
They
scored big at Ruby Ridge.
We know the FBI also had a snitch inside, how come nothing there?
Strassmeier is alleged
to have known McVeigh up in Kansas. Our boy, Andreas, certainly gets around
for
an illegal that the
FBI and ATF knew all about. The ATF put out a bulletin to pick up Strassmeier
after the
bombing. They should
have called the FBI, they knew where their boy was.
Somewhere along the way,
we have the son of a high ranking cabinet member in the German
government with very
shadowy ties and background, who finds this closed community out in the
sticks
and gets real friendly
with them. Gosh, how do all these people meet up anyhow? Well, we won't
know
from McVeigh because
he's dead.
We can't put Strassmeier
on the stand because the U.S. government made sure he got out of the United
States and back to Germany.
You can take money to the bank that neither Colin Powell nor John Ashcroft
will
ever lift a pencil to
get him extradited. After all, we wouldn't want to jeopardize our good
relations with
the German government
over something so inconsequential as bringing one of the masterminds of
this
bombing back to stand
trial, now would we?
My opinion is that this
whole aspect of the mystery is a diversion. Andreas Strassmeier wormed
his way
into white supremacist
organizations. There was a reason for that. No one in that organization
has the
muscle to keep the mystery
of the bombs removed from the building covered up to this extent. Dennis
Mahon, a player in the
Eloim City bunch, is a real piece of work. I think he believes he's a legend
in his
own mind. What can you
say about these people who are so stupid?
One thing I can say,
and it's strictly my opinion. Strassmeier got into this country, stayed
in this country
and was a protected
asset of some government black operation.
An inquiry was made by the U.S. Department of State about Herr Strassmeier:
http://www.busprod.com/hellion/okc/docs/STATED.GIF
I would ask you to go and read these reports from the ATF's snitch inside Eloim City:
http://www.busprod.com/hellion/okc/docs/strassr1.htm
The feds knew, and how
could they not with a CI for the FBI and a CI for the ATF in the same group,
who
Andreas Strassmeier
was, where he came from and that he was in the country illegally? The ATF's
own
CI reports (see URL
above, 1.11.95) states they knew he was here illegally. They knew everything
that
was going on, including
what kinds of weapons and other toys these boys had. Yet, they never touched
them. Why? What other
documents haven't been released about Eloim City?
Why the kid gloves with
this potentially dangerous group? Because I believe that in the end, it
would be
much easier to sell
a connection between McVeigh and these crazies, than any other explanation
of why
this young, decorated
former military solider went berserk. Remember: On April 19, 1995, an important
execution, as far as
these racists who belong to this WAR organization were concerned, went
down.
Richard Snell, their
former grand pooba was executed that morning in Arkansas.
Snell apparently shouted
at the 11th hour that the governor and everyone would pay for his execution.
Again, we have these
kooks who are potentially dangerous, the feds have infiltrated the joint.
They
know Snell is going
to be executed that morning, April 19th, Patriots Day. Waco Massacre Day.
An
attempt was made during
the trial to connect McVeigh with these people through calling cards.
However, if you read
the documents cited in the URL above from CI Carol Howe, how come this
big,
important player, McVeigh,
is never mentioned? From 11.24.94 - 1.11.95, no mention of McVeigh, yet
according to the feds
at McVeigh's first trial, he was all wrapped up with these dudes. The '94
time frame
is when McVeigh and
Nichols allegedly were purchasing all this bomb material stuff. There doesn't
appear to be any cross-over,
just wishful thinking by the federal prosecutors during the trial.
J.D. Cash and a few others
have focused on this Eloim City group as an intregal part of the bombing.
I say
this is a smokescreen.
Was there a middle-eastern connection? I believe so and I mentioned this
earlier.
If anyone had the ability
to put something like that together, it was Andreas Strassmeier. Herr
Strassmeier's family
connections and his documented desire to work in American intelligence
or DEA,
reeks of a set-up.
We should not underestimate
Herr Strassmeier and his ability to operate the way he did in the U.S.
and
his knowledge of arms
and explosives. What a perfect side show to be available after the building
is
blown, the bad guys
are long gone and Kirk Lyons, who ran an organization called CAUSE back
then,
helps spirit Strassmeier
out of the country. The feds knew every move these people were making.
You think
they didn't know where
Strassmeier was and how he was planning to get out of the country?
Very little has been
heard of from the group at Eloim City since Dennis Mahon testified at the
county
grand jury years ago.
I believe that he bragged when he came out of the building after testifying,
that he
"couldn't be touched."
I wouldn't know, but things have been awfully quiet down there since the
bombing. I wonder what's
really going on with these people and what kind of games the feds are playing
with them this week?
I'll give Stephen Jones
credit, he did rip apart the government's tale about phone cards and the
accuracy
of those things as it
relates to tracking calls made. McVeigh's connection to Eloim City as far
as I can find
in all these many hours
of research, is the calling card and mention by Carol Howe during her trial,
under
oath in December, 1997:
Q. Now, are you familiar with what Timothy McVeigh looks like, Ms. Howe?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you seen photographs of Timothy McVeigh?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Did you ever see Timothy McVeigh at the Elhoim City compound?
A. I believe I did.
Q. All right. When did you see him?
A. It was in July of 1994.
Q. Okay. And where did you see him?
A. He was at a section of the compound walking across a lawn near the church building.
Q. And was he accompanied by any other individuals who you know?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And who were they?
A. A man named Peter Ward and a man named Andreas Strassmeier.
Q. About how far away were you when you believe you saw Timothy McVeigh?
A. Approximately 70 feet.
Q. At the time that you saw him, did you know his name was Timothy McVeigh?
A. No, sir.
Q. You subsequently came to learn his name was Timothy McVeigh?
A. Correct.
Here is where I maintain
we have a problem with the whereabouts of Tim McVeigh. Carol Howe, a paid
ATF informant, says
she saw McVeigh at the Eloim City area in July of 1994. She was fighting
for her
freedom during her trial.
During her post- bombing de-briefing, she thinks she saw McVeigh:
http://www.busprod.com/hellion/okc/docs/fbidoc.htm
You're the jury, what do you think about this confusion of who saw who and when?
Please note in the document
cited in the URL above, this is after the bombing de- briefing and after
the
ATF has done lots of
reports on CI-183, Carol Howe. In this 4.21.95 debriefing, Strassmeier
is spelled
Straysmeyer. Mahon is
spelled Mehaun. A Dr. Peter Lipron of Lawton, OK, supposedly supplied the
Eloim City crowd with
some money, communication equipment and medical supplies. But, I think
the
most relevant sentences
in this after the bombing report is this:
"Although some EC members
have suggested that they should strike the government first, Carol has
heard of no specific
plans for vengeance."
This is two days after
the bombing. These legends in their own minds are still breathing fire
and rhetoric,
but no plans are underway
for a specific strike. Lots of bluster going on here. So how did these
people
mesh with McVeigh, wire
the Murrah Building with charges on the columns inside the building --
all
without the knowledge
of this well-placed snitch?
Lori Fortier testified
at McVeigh's trial for the prosecution. She was fighting to stay free under
an
immunity agreement with
the feds. Mrs. Fortier stated the following under oath on April 27, 1997:
Q. Do you recall your next contact with McVeigh after that telephone call?
A. Yes.
Q. When was it, approximately?
A. Approximately the first part of February.
Q. What year?
A. '94.
Q. How is it that you recall that approximate date?
A. Because I remember that Tim was not there for the Super Bowl of 1994.
Q. How do you remember that?
A. Because the Bills were playing in the Super Bowl and that was his favorite team.
Q. Buffalo Bills?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall who they played?
A. They played the Cowboys.
Q. And you recall watching the game?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. He was not there in that area?
A. No, he was not.
Q. All right. How do you recall when he arrived?
A. Because he was there
for our daughter's first birthday party, which would have been Valentine's
Day of
1994.
Q. Do you recall how long he stayed during this visit?
A. Through the next summer.
Q. When he first arrived, where did he stay?
A. He stayed with us approximately for a few weeks, and then he got his own like house.
Q. When you say he got his own house, what do you mean?
A. He rented a house.
Q. Where did he rent a house?
A. It was a block house out in Golden Valley, about 10 miles outside of Kingman.
Q. Which direction from Kingman is Golden Valley?
A. South, I believe.
Q. Is that a smaller community, small city? What is that?
A. Yeah, it's like a suburb of Kingman.
Q. And you referred to a block house. What's a block house?
A. Like a concrete-block house.
Q. During the time that McVeigh had rented this block house in 1994, did you ever visit him there?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Do you recall your first visit?
A. The first time we went to visit him, Terry Nichols was there.
Q. How long had McVeigh lived in that block house, approximately?
A. A few weeks.
Q. And do you recall what happened when you visited him?
A. Yes, Terry cooked us dinner.
Q. Anything else that you remember?
A. No, not that I remember.
Q. Did you ever see Nichols in that block house again?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And do you know where Nichols' wife and child were then?
A. They were in the Philippines.
Q. Was his wife, by the way, from the Philippines?
A. Yes, she was.
Q. Do you recall her name?
A. Marife.
Q. Do you recall his daughter's name?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you have any idea how long Nichols stayed in the Kingman area?
A. I'd say a couple weeks.
Q. Why do you know that?
A. Because Tim said that they were fighting and Terry moved out.**
Q. During this period
of time in the -- I was going to say the middle of '94, but you said it
was sometime
beginning before Valentine's
Day of '94 and continuing through a good portion of the summer; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. So during those months
of 1994, when McVeigh was living in the Kingman area, did he have any
employment?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Where did he work?
A. He worked at Kingman TruValue, also.
Q. Same place as your husband was working?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know what his job -- what McVeigh's job was?
A. He worked out back.
Q. Meaning what?
A. He worked in the lumberyard part of the store.
Q. Okay. What was your husband doing at that time?
A. He was working as a bookkeeper in the office.
Q. How often did you
see McVeigh during this period of time, several months in 1994, when he
was living in
the Kingman area?
A. Weekly.
Q. And for what occasions did you see him?
A. Pretty much social, just socializing.
Q. Did you consider him to be a friend at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you include him among your friends for various social activities?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What kind of things did you do together in which you included McVeigh?
A. We'd go see Michael's brother and we'd go see my friend Norma and we'd rent movies, stuff like that.
Q. Do you recall whether McVeigh had a telephone in that block house?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Do you know how he made phone calls?
A. He'd come to our house and make phone calls.
My comment here: Ms.
Howe says she thinks saw McVeigh at the Eloim City area in July 1994. Where
was this Eloim City
located? This is Ms. Howe's description of driving directions during her
trial:
Q. Ms. Howe, in the fall
of 1994, were you present on numerous occasions at the area known as Eloim
City?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And if I showed you
a map of the state of Oklahoma, could you identify for the jury where it's
located?
A. Yes, I could.
MR. THURSCHWELL: I'm
going to show the witness and the jury what's been previously admitted
as
D1801.
BY MR. THURSCHWELL:
Q. Now, can you -- let me back out. Do you recognize this map as a map of Oklahoma?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Okay. And I cut it
off a little bit here, but I'll extend it. And focusing in, can you see
that this is
Oklahoma City where
I'm pointing right here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now -- and then this would be Tulsa, which is where you live?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. Now, in relation
to Tulsa, what we see here -- can you point on this map to where Eloim
City
is located?
A. It's right around in this area somewhere in there.
Q. I'm going to focus
in on that area. It's going to change where your marks are, but tell me
if I still have
the right area. Do you
see -- do you see a town that -- where Eloim City is located and a post
office
address?
A. In Muldrow, which is right there.
Q. And is Muldrow -- what is that major highway that's indicated running right next to Muldrow?
A. Interstate 40.
Q. And if you go east on Interstate 40, where do you get to? What's the first state you reach?
A. Arkansas.
Q. Okay. And if you -- what's the first major city you get to if you travel west on I-40?
A. Sallisaw, Oklahoma.
Q. And after that?
A. Oklahoma City.
Q. Oklahoma City. Okay. Thank you very much. I-40 runs directly through Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, sir.
I got out my Atlas map
and took a look to see where this place is and it's relationship in driving
distance
to Kingman, Arizona.
Sallisaw and Muldrow are very close to the Arkansas border, clear on the
east side
of Oklahoma. Kingman,
Arizona is two states to the west, with Kingman being farther to the west.
The
driving distance from
Eloim City to Kingman is considerable.
Carol Howe says she thinks
she saw McVeigh at Eloim City in July, 1994. Lori Fortier says he was living
and working in Kingman,
Arizona at the same time, and in fact, she and her husband saw and socialized
with him weekly. So
who do we believe? Could McVeigh have decided to drive to Eloim City from
Kingman, Arizona in
July of 1994? Sure, anything is possible. Maybe he flew out there in July
1994,
although he didn't have
two nickels to rub together. The important thing is to find out which story
is
accurate.
But, you have conflicting
testimony here that no one has bothered to look into and Ms. Howe didn't
give
specifics. Although,
she could have in one of her reports to her handlers at the ATF, but we
the jurors
aren't likely to see
those documents any time soon are we?
McVeigh worked at a TruValue
store during this time. You could check his employment records to see if
he had a window of opportunity
to drive to the Arkansas border from Kingman in order to validate Ms.
Howe's placing McVeigh
at Elhoim City during the targeted time period.
Terry Nichols owned a
farm in Herington, Kansas where he was arrested. He turned himself in when
he
discovered that he was
someone the feds wanted to speak to about the bombing. Again, there seems
to be
some confusion as to
dates and who lived where. Recall what Lori Fortier says about Terry Lynn
Nichols
living with McVeigh:
McVeigh got to Kingman sometime around Valentine's Day and thereafter,
Nichols
came to live at McVeigh's
rented house. Lori Fortier claims Nichols lived at McVeigh's house for
a few
weeks, but then left
because they were fighting with each other. Yet, during Nichols trial,
the
prosecution states this
during his opening statement:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/okc.trial/transcripts/November/110397.am.txt
"Instead, by early 1994,
Tim McVeigh had settled in Kingman, Arizona, a small town near the western
border of Arizona and
Nevada. Terry Nichols lived briefly with Tim McVeigh in Kingman and then
in
early 1994 moved to
Marion, Kansas, central Kansas. But as you will learn, distance did not
separate
these two men for long.
In fact, during the late summer 1994, Tim McVeigh traveled from Kingman
to
Arizona -- excuse me
-- to Kansas and lived with Terry Nichols and his family.
"Tim McVeigh was still
there in Kansas in mid September of 1994 when Terry Nichols' wife and his
daughter left this country
and returned to the Philippines. His wife and daughter did not return to
this
country for the next
six months. Their departure left Terry Nichols and Tim McVeigh alone and
together
in Marion, Kansas, and
that combination of time and place begins a series of events spelled out
in the
grand jury's indictment.
"September 1994 marks
the time and central Kansas marks the place where Terry Nichols and Tim
McVeigh took their first
steps in their plan to attack the federal government. They began with their
commitment to each other
and Tim McVeigh's attempt to recruit a third person, a man named Michael
Fortier, into their
plan."
* * *
We have some jumbled
time lines here between Carol Howe, Lori Fortier and the feds during Nichols
trial. We also have
the ATF 30-day reports of Howe's activities inside the Eloim City. Lots
of fiery talk. A
German national illegally
residing in the states; an individual with a very suspect background and
desire
to work in the shadowy
world of government intelligence, for the U.S. government.
Jane Graham, who I have
spoken about before, states in her live affidavit that she saw a McVeigh
in the
Murrah Building the
day before the bombing. You saw in one of my prior pieces, an uncanny photo
comparison of McVeigh
and an unidentified ATF agent (scroll down about half way):
https://devvy.com/graham_20010526.html
Strassmeier allegedly,
and long after the fact, claims he met McVeigh at a gun show. I can't tell
you how
many people I have met
at guns shows while collecting signatures for ballot initiatives.
Apparently McVeigh once
got a ticket about 20 miles from the property marked off by the Eloim City
people and that is something
I cannot explain except to say recall what Trooper Hanger said during his
testimony: McVeigh told
him at the time of the arrest that he was moving to Arkansas, had taken
a load
of stuff already and
was on his way back. It could be that he got that ticket while looking
for where he
wanted to move to in
Arkansas. There are lots of reasons. Unfortunately, we'll never know because
the
one person who could
tell us is dead.
Whether getting a ticket
years earlier near Eloim City translates into being part of a conspiracy
and
blowing up a building,
you will have to decide for yourself. From all that was written about the
Eloim
City people, they appeared
to do a lot of huffing, puffing and threatening about blowing up federal
buildings, especially
OKC, but a lot of this comes from Carol Howe. I have seen and heard a lot
in the
past ten plus years.
A lot of huffing and puffing out there in America. I have not seen the
threatened
violence materialize
and hope I never do from any of these people.
In any event, there was
a lot of activity regarding this group of people. The feds, both agencies,
apparently felt it was
more fun to play games with them than anything else. I believe that the
upcoming
report by Charles Key
places a large part of the focus on Eloim City and the players, but I have
only read
the summary to date
since it is not yet released:
http://www.camorsepublishing.com/summary_okc_investigation.html
Charles Key and his dedicated
researchers and investigators have spent years on this murder. They have
access to information
I do not. I have not read this report, but will get a copy when it becomes
available.
It may change my mind
on the importance of the Eloim City crowd. It may not. But, every clue,
every
participant, every oddity,
all must be taken into consideration when you're attempting to solve mystery.
It is my understanding
that when a jury considers evidence in a case based solely on circumstantial
evidence, if one link
in the chain is broken, the circumstantial case is broken.
These groups like Eloim
City are prime fodder for the compromised media and the alphabet soup
agencies of the government.
Their mouthpieces, along with the compromised media, go to great lengths
to make connections
between "anti- government" groups and violence. How transparent, yet the
average
Joe out there who gets
all their "news" from the big networks (ABC, etc.), swallow this bilge
like a kid
with a slurpee.
Carol Howe:
http://www.busprod.com/hellion/okc/docs.htm
Others Who Claim Government Had Prior Knowledge/Additional Information on bombing:
http://www.4bypass.com/archives/July-99.htm
Did you read anything
in Hartzler's opening statement of the first trial about Eloim City? How
come the
government ignored all
the activities and goings-on there during McVeigh's trial? How come Judge
Richard Matsch would
not allow Carol Howe to testify at McVeigh's trial? A man's life was at
stake. The
defense had a right
to attempt to show that someone else could have been responsible. No. Instead,
the
feds come up with this
drifter, because basically that's what McVeigh was, who is a "political
animal."
He's broke, always living
here and there. He has a military background. He has a friend who owns
a farm
and the two of them
cook up this weapon of mass destruction and their key, star witnesses are
a pair of
losers and dopers to
boot: Lori and Michael Fortier.
The issue of Andreas
Strassmeier is a very important one. Stephen Jones should have fought all
the way
to the U.S. Supreme
Court to force Janet Waco Reno's Department of InJustice to get this guy
extradited
back to the United States.
Should Strassmeier be found guilty in a court of law, those who assisted
in
getting him out of the
country should be charged with obstruction of justice. Strassmeier is a
key player
and a very bad, ugly
person. Information on this man:
http://www.jps.net/triumph/gaa21.htm
Was there a middle-Eastern
connection? I believe there was, simply for the purpose of using individuals
from terrorist cells
who could get in and out of the U.S. and never be traced back to the masterminds
behind the bombing.
I believe, and you can make up your own mind, that the Eloim City crowd
was used.
They were infiltrated.
They were supplied weapons and training on how to use them. They had snitches,
baby- sitters, on the
inside. It was a grand old time for these "leaders" who think so highly
of themselves
and their racist agenda.
But, the placement of
explosive charges inside that building was not done by a bunch of fat,
weekend
warriors who live out
in the sticks playing grand pooba's of the racist underground. This murder
was well
planned and well timed
to achieve maximum results.
Stephen Jones did file
a Petition for Writ of Mandamus of Petitioner-Defendant, Timothy James
McVeigh
and Brief in Support,
March 25, 1997, but he got stonewalled all the way. I'll give him a little
bit of credit
for making the appearance
of an effort:
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mcveigh/part01.htm
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mcveigh/part05.htm
What is the government
hiding? A lot. There is one piece of crucial evidence that could blow the
lid off
this whole thing: The
surveillance video from the camera that was located on the front of the
Southwestern Bell Building
directly across the street from the Murrah Building and pointed right at
the
crime scene.
For almost a year, the
Justice Department's lawyers have fought tooth and nail in court to have
a
Freedom of Information
Act lawsuit dismissed. This FOIA suit is to get 23 pieces of tape the FBI
confiscated from surveillance
cameras at the Murrah Building and some of the other buildings in close
proximity to the crime
scene. Why is the government, now Ashcroft's DoJ, fighting so hard to keep
this
evidence secret? This
film alone would prove opportunity for McVeigh and establish once and for
all his physical
being in front of the
building that morning.
If that video film from
the Southwestern Bell Building showed Tim McVeigh, either alone or with
others,
getting out of that
Ryder truck and walking away, we would have seen it on TV a million times
already, just
like the Rodney King
video. If that video film the feds are hiding showed McVeigh, either alone
or with
others, getting out
of that Ryder truck and walking away, the U.S. government would have used
it in the
first trial. There would
have been no need to go through the horse and pony show, the video would
have
proved their case beyond
a shadow of a doubt - if you ignore the physical evidence, i.e. the truck
bomb
could not have blown
the building up.
The fact that the feds
continue to fight to keep all of these video tapes under wraps speaks louder
than this
entire piece. My money
also says somewhere on those videos you will clearly see there is no crater
in
front of the building.
On those videos the world would see the truth: the sequence of explosions
as the whole
thing happened. That
is why the feds won't turn over the videos. Take money to the bank on it.
You can also
take money to the bank
because I'll bet the feds deny the existence of any film or that it has
disappeared.
Bet.
The government's star
witness against McVeigh was Michael Fortier and his wife, Lori. A pair
of meth
freaks who not only
used, but sold. I realize that in certain instances, the prosecution has
to make deals
with bottom-feeders
like these two, but in this case, the Fortier's cooperation with the feds
was strictly
for self-preservation.
I believe the two of them lied under oath and their testimonies are simply
worthless and meaningless
as far as credibility. But, that doesn't mean you shouldn't read the trial
transcripts so that
you can make up your own mind.
The Defendant
Decorated military soldier or mastermind of a mass murder?
Every defendant, even
the one accused in the OKC bombing, is supposed to be given the presumption
of
innocence. Unfortunately,
this wasn't possible in McVeigh or Nichols' cases. You have read McVeigh's
military history. He
was a model soldier and proud to serve. He had fallen on hard times financially.
The feds say he and Nichols
robbed to get money to finance their master plan to strike back at the
government. Considering
the track record of the government in this case, can we really believe
them on
this and rely on the
analysis of evidence, i.e., locks and drills? McVeigh was so poor, he relied
on junker
cars that barely ran
to put together his huge truck bomb. Somehow he came up with almost three
hundred dollars in cash
to rent the truck, even though he looked like he didn't eat many square
meals. I
guess he saved all his
robbery money from the year before.
I have said this from
day one right up until this time: If Timothy James McVeigh was guilty of
using a truck
bomb that defied all
the laws of science and nature to blow up the Murrah Building and kill
168 people,
then justice has been
served.
If the Department of
Justice, now under the stewardship of John Ashcroft, is hiding videos that
will show
us the event as it unfolded,
they must be released immediately. It's the only way we can be sure a patsy
wasn't executed and
all the conspiracy theories will go away. Many people believe McVeigh wasn't
executed, that he was
a government player and was spirited out of the country. I don't believe
this
because there's nothing
more dangerous than a loose cannon showing up five years down the road.
Dead
is better. The old Mafia
dons used to give the kiss of death to their own. Everyone is expendable
so the
players at the top of
the heap remain untouchable.
If Timothy James McVeigh
did drive a yellow Ryder truck to the front of the building and a homemade
truck bomb destroyed
cars, property and took anyone's life within striking distance, then that
is what he
should have been charged
with and a trial held. Those video reels being hidden by the DoJ will show
us
the truth.
If Timothy James McVeigh
committed robberies of any kind, then that's what he should have been
charged with and a trial
held.
But, he confessed? Right? Did he?
This part of my closing
argument is by far the most difficult for me to do. My credibility is everything
and
I've worked very hard
to establish my reputation as a person who does their homework and doesn't
knee-jerk to every conspiracy
theory that comes off the Internet. I carefully study whatever the issue
or
"disaster" is and go
from there. But, we may as well get to it.
As I have said before,
I highly recommend that you read the trial from start to finish as a whole,
but time
shortage being what
it is, I have highlighted just these few. You can review all the transcripts
of the trial
at the URL below:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/okc.trial/transcripts/mcveigh.html
As I have said throughout
this work, always go back to the beginning for answers and work forward.
I
would like you to pay
particular attention to the testimony of Trooper Charlie Hanger, the law
enforcement officer
who arrested McVeigh on April 19, 1995. McVeigh's behavior is glaringly
inconsistent
with someone who had
just murdered 168 people. It simply makes no sense. This is a portion of
Hanger's
testimony on direct
(from the government prosecutor), April 28, 1997:
Q. Step by step, can
you tell the ladies and gentlemen what happened just prior to the time
that you
stopped this car.
A. I was northbound on
Interstate 35 in the left-hand lane, and I passed that vehicle. As I was
passing by
it, I noticed that it
was not displaying a tag; so I slowed down, got in behind it. It was in
the right lane, I
was in the left lane.
And I pulled in behind that vehicle and initiated my emergency lights signaling
for it
to pull over.
Q. And this is in the northbound lane going towards Kansas?
A. Yes.
Q. At about 10:20 that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. And what side of the road did the vehicle pull over? Did the vehicle pull over?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. On what side of the road?
A. On the right shoulder of the roadway.
Q. What did you do?
A. I pulled up behind
the vehicle. And as I was pulling up approaching the vehicle, I was watching
the
driver. And appeared
to be only one occupant, the driver. I stopped my vehicle approximately
20 feet
behind the Mercury.
And I was offset to the Mercury, I was 3 to 4 feet further to the west
or the left than
the Mercury was. He
was partially in the grass and partially on the shoulder. I was all on
the shoulder.
Q. Now, after both vehicles were stopped, what happened?
A. I took my seat belt
off, opened the car door, observed that the Mercury door was open. I got
out,
stood behind my door.
As I was getting out, the driver of the Mercury's feet came out the door.
There
was a slight pause,
a couple of seconds, and then the driver stood up. I was able to see both
his hands,
and he started walking
toward me.
Q. Now, at this time
were you still standing behind your car door? Was your car door between
yourself
and that driver?
A. Yes.
Q. Look around the courtroom and tell us if you see the individual who was driving that car.
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you point him out and describe an article of his clothing?
A. He's the gentleman
in the blue shirt, has a black watch, dark hair, sitting at the table there
next to the
lady with the black
and white jacket.
MR. MENDELOFF: Let the
record reflect the identification of the defendant, Timothy McVeigh, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. What was the reason you stayed behind your car door throughout this time?
A. My car door affords me some protection in the event that anything violent might occur.
Q. Were you particularly focused on this issue at this point?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. What was the reason for that?
A. Exactly two weeks
to the day prior to this, we'd had a trooper involved in a shooting on
Interstate 35,
not 15 miles from where
I was making this stop.
Q. All right. Now, after Defendant McVeigh started walking toward you, what did you do?
A. I stepped out from behind my door and also walked toward him.
Q. Did you meet him at some point?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. At a point 3 to 4 feet south of the left corner of his car and then 3 to 4 feet west.
Q. So this would have been behind the driver's side back corner of the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let me ask you
to look at Government Exhibits 411, 412, 413, and 414 in the sheaf of papers
in
front of you. All four,
please.
A. Okay.
Q. What are those photos?
A. These are the photographs of the car that I stopped that morning.
Q. Do they fairly and
accurately depict the appearance of Defendant McVeigh's Mercury when you
stopped him a little
before 10:20 a.m. on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes, they do.
MR. MENDELOFF: Your Honor, we'd move the admission of Government Exhibits 411 through 414.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, Trooper Hanger, did you take these photographs?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And do you know whether they were taken on the day of the arrest or sometime thereafter?
A. Sometime thereafter.
Q. Let me direct your attention to Government Exhibit 414.
MR. MENDELOFF: May I publish it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. First, with your light
pen, could you please point out for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury
the
primer spot that you
were referring to.
And if you could clear that, please.
Where in relation to
the back driver's side corner of the car did you meet with Defendant McVeigh
at
that point?
A. It probably doesn't
show enough of the distance, but it would be back over in this area and
then back
toward me.
Q. Can you point out where it is? Right about there; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Off the picture?
A. Yes.
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor,
could we have a copy of that photograph, please? Of the drawing that was
on
that.
THE COURT: Has it already been cleared?
MR. MENDELOFF: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You'll have to go a little faster.
MS. RAMSEY: Okay.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Direct your attention to Government Exhibit 411. What is that?
A. That's the same automobile looking at it from the front.
Q. 412?
A. Also the same automobile looking at it from the rear.
Q. And 413?
A. And that is the same automobile looking from the right side.
Q. When you met with
Defendant McVeigh at a point near the rear of his car, did you have a
conversation with him?
A. Yes.
Q. Who spoke first?
A. I did.
Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what you said to Defendant McVeigh.
A. I told him the reason I stopped him was because he wasn't displaying a tag.
Q. Did he make any physical movement at that point?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he do?
A. He looked back at the back of the vehicle, of his vehicle.
Q. Toward what area?
A. Toward the bumper area.
Q. Was there a tag there?
A. No.
Q. At that point, did Defendant McVeigh offer any statement?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said he hadn't had the vehicle very long and didn't have a tag.
Q. And did he say how he had obtained it?
A. Pardon?
Q. Did he say how he had obtained it?
A. He had purchased it.
Q. Did you ask him any questions about the purchase?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you ask him?
A. I asked him if he could produce a bill of sale.
Q. And his response?
A. He said, no; that the person that he had purchased it from was still filling it out.
Q. Did you ask him anything else?
A. I said, "How long does it take to fill out a bill of sale?"
Q. What did he say?
A. "I don't have one with me."
Q. Did ask you him for anything at that point?
A. Yes. I asked him for his driver's license.
Q. What did he do?
A. He went to his right
rear pocket and produced a camouflage-colored billfold and took his driver's
license from it.
Q. Now, as he reached
for his billfold, in his right rear pocket, can you describe to the ladies
and
gentlemen of the jury
physically how did he this?
A. Turned like this, reached into his pocket.
Q. As Defendant McVeigh
reached for his driver's license, did you notice anything out of the ordinary
underneath his clothing?
A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. I noticed a bulge
under his left arm. He was wearing a jacket, and it was -- there was a
bulge under his
left arm, in this area
right here.
Q. What type of jacket?
A. It was a light wind breaker-type jacket.
Q. After Defendant McVeigh took out his wallet, did he hand you anything?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he hand you?
A. His driver's license.
Q. Let me ask you to look at Government Exhibit 427.
MR. MENDELOFF: Your Honor, maybe we could do it with the other --
THE COURT: Well, that doesn't seem to be working.
THE WITNESS: I found it.
THE COURT: Do you have it, 427?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. MENDELOFF: He's got it.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. What is Government Exhibit 427?
A. That is a Michigan driver's license in the name of Timothy James McVeigh.
Q. And do you recognize this driver's license?
A. Yes.
Q. What do you recognize it as?
A. That appears to be the same driver's license that was given to me that morning.
Q. Do you discern any difference in it from the last time you saw it?
A. No.
MR. MENDELOFF: Move the admission of Government Exhibit 427.
MS. RAMSEY: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Received, 427.
MR. MENDELOFF: May we publish it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. Now, after Defendant McVeigh produced his driver's license, did you instruct him to do anything?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you instruct him to do?
A. I told him to take both hands and to slowly pull back his jacket.
Q. Okay. Physically, what did he do?
A. His jacket was zipped just a little bit. He unzipped it and began pulling it back.
Q. As he did that, did he make any remark?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, "I have a gun."
Q. What did you do at that point?
A. At that point, I reached
for the bulge in the jacket. I grabbed it with my left hand and instructed
him,
"Get your hands up and
turn around."
Q. All right. And as you did that, what did you do with your right hand?
A. I pulled my weapon, and I stuck it to the back of his head.
Q. Did you give him any instructions?
A. Yes. I said, "Walk to the back of your car."
Q. Did you keep your weapon in the back of his head as you walked him to the back of his car?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When you got to the back of his car, what did you do?
A. I instructed him to put his hands on the trunk, to spread his legs, and he did so.
Q. And then?
A. Then I removed the weapon from the underneath side of the jacket.
Q. What did you do with the weapon?
A. I threw it on the side of the roadway.
Q. At this point in time in the encounter, did Defendant McVeigh make any statement to you?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He told me that he had a clip also on his belt with the -- a pouch that contained an ammunition clip.
Q. Now, what is a clip?
A. A clip is a magazine that goes in the bottom of a weapon that holds ammunition.
Q. After he told you that, what did you do?
A. I removed that clip, also tossed it on the shoulder of the road.
Q. Did he make any further remark?
A. Yes. He said, "I also have a knife."
Q. And what did you do when he said he had a knife?
A. I again pulled the jacket back, removed the knife, threw it on the shoulder of the roadway, also.
Q. Now, when Defendant McVeigh said -- told you that he had a knife and a clip, where was your gun?
A. Still pointed toward his back -- not his head now, but his back.
Q. After you removed these articles from his person, what did you do?
A. I patted him down.
Q. All right. And then?
A. Handcuffed him.
Q. Where did you put his hands?
A. Behind his back.
Q. And where was his billfold at this point?
A. It was in his pocket.
Q. Rear pocket?
A. Yes; right rear pocket.
Q. At this point in the encounter, did you ask Defendant McVeigh regarding his possession of a gun?
A. I asked him why he would be carrying a loaded firearm.
Q. What did he say?
A. He felt like he had the right to carry it for his protection.
Q. What did you do at this point?
A. I took him to my patrol unit and placed him in the right front seat, seat-belted him in.
Q. Now, what type of seats did your patrol unit have?
A. Bucket seats.
Q. At that point, did you leave Defendant McVeigh in the car and do something outside of the car?
A. Yes. I retrieved the evidence that I'd thrown onto the shoulder and took it to the trunk.
Q. Which was what?
A. Which was the gun, the clip, the knife.
Q. And when you took it to the trunk, which trunk: your trunk, or Defendant McVeigh's?
A. The trunk of my unit.
Q. What did you do there?
A. Opened the trunk;
and I put the clip in there, I put the knife in there, I took the clip
out of the weapon
and put it in there.
It was loaded, also. And then I checked the chamber of the weapon and found
that it
contained a .45 caliber
Black Talon round, and I also laid it in the trunk.
Q. What is the chamber of the gun?
A. That's the magazine where the bullet goes in, and in that position it's in a firing position.
Q. So that's the bullet that's ready to shoot out of the gun?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is a Black Talon round?
A. It's known to me as
a destructive round that when fired into a person, it expands with tentacles
and
does more severe damage
than a normal round to the inner part of the body.
Q. How did that bullet
compare to the bullets in the two clips that you retrieved from Defendant
McVeigh?
A. The two clips contained
just what I refer to as "round ball ammunition," this is .45 caliber ammunition.
It was round ball.
Q. Were they Black Talon rounds?
A. No.
Q. Now, after you removed
the Black Talon round from the gun and put that in the trunk with the other
articles, did you take
the gun anywhere?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you take it?
A. Up to the front, inside my unit there, by the driver's seat.
Q. After you placed Defendant
McVeigh's knife and bullet in the trunk, did you take any steps to apprise
your dispatcher of the
events surrounding this arrest?
A. Yes.
Q. What time was that?
A. Around 10:22.
Q. How much time had elapsed in this encounter as of that point, roughly?
A. I would estimate no more than five minutes.
Q. Now, how did you contact your dispatcher that morning?
A. By using my cellular phone.
Q. You normally use a cellular phone to contact your dispatcher when you're on the highway?
A. No.
Q. What was the reason you were using a cell phone that morning?
A. Due to the ongoing
tragedy in Oklahoma City, our radio net was directed to only the Oklahoma
City
headquarters and the
units working in that immediate area and prohibited me from talking on
the radio
unless it was an emergency.
Q. When you telephoned
your dispatcher, did you ask her for any information relative to Defendant
McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. What information was that?
A. I asked if she would run a check for wanted, a criminal records check on Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Let's make clear we understand what that is. What does "wanted" mean?
A. To see if there's any outstanding warrants for Mr. McVeigh.
Q. When you say "criminal records check," what are you referring to?
A. That is to see if he has any prior criminal record.
Q. While the dispatcher
was running the criminal history and warrants check on Defendant McVeigh,
what did you do?
A. I was looking for the serial number on the weapon.
Q. And what were you doing physically to do that?
A. I had the weapon in
my hand and I was turning it around, trying it see where it was on the
weapon. I
hadn't seen it immediately.
Q. Did Defendant McVeigh make any remark during that time?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He quoted a serial number.
Q. Which was what?
A. He said the serial number was VM769.
Q. All right. What did you respond?
A. About that time, I had located it. I said, "Well, you're close. It's VW769."
Q. What did he respond?
A. He said, "Well, I knew it was an M or W."
Q. Did you say anything to Defendant McVeigh at this point?
A. I said, "Most people wouldn't know the serial number on their weapon."
Q. What did he say?
A. "I do."
Q. Did he ask you any questions about your gun at that time?
A. He asked what I carried.
Q. What did you say?
A. I said I carried a Sig Model 228.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, "Oh, a 9-millimeter."
Q. Is a Sig 228 a 9-millimeter?
A. Yes.
Q. At this point, did you again contact your dispatcher?
A. Yes.
Q. And what information did you provide to your dispatcher?
A. I gave her the make
and the serial number of the weapon so she could run a check on it to see
if it
was stolen.
Q. A short time later,
did you receive any information back from your dispatcher relative to the
inquiries
you had made?
A. Yes.
Q. And can you tell us what you were told?
A. She informed me that
there was, Mr. McVeigh was not wanted; that he had no criminal history,
and
the gun was not reported
stolen.
Q. Did you tell your dispatcher you would contact her again in a short while with other information?
MS. RAMSEY: Your Honor, I'm going to object as leading.
THE COURT: All right. Try to avoid the leading, please.
MR. MENDELOFF: I will, your Honor.
BY MR. MENDELOFF:
Q. What did you tell your dispatcher next?
A. I told her that I
was going to obtain the VIN number of the vehicle, the identification number
off the
Mercury, and have her
run some checks on that because it was not displaying a tag.
Q. What is a vehicle identification number?
A. That's a number assigned
by the manufacturer to identify that specific vehicle, and it's located
in an
area on this particular
vehicle on the lower left-hand portion of the front windshield.
Q. What was the reason
you told your dispatcher you'd have to call back with the vehicle identification
number?
A. Because I would have to go to the vehicle to obtain it.
Q. After you got off
the phone with your dispatcher, what, if anything, did you do with Defendant
McVeigh's gun?
A. I took it and put it in the trunk of my unit.
Q. Now, at about this time, did you have occasion to interview Defendant McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. Prior to the interview,
did you take any steps to try to record the conversation you were having
with
Defendant McVeigh?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were you able to record?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. I hit the wrong two buttons on my video camera.
Q. In your unit?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you explain the recording system in your car?
A. There's a panel, a
short little panel up there on the dash; and if you -- it's a video camera.
If you want
to video, you can get
video and audio at the same time. You can also record inside the unit.
There's a
microphone inside the
unit, provides you opportunity to record audio inside the unit while you're
recording the video
outside the unit.
Q. Do you need to press the same buttons, or different buttons, to record audio or video?
A. Different.
Q. Which buttons did you press?
A. I pressed the record/play
button, which I thought was activating both the audio and the video; and
it
only activated the video.
Q. And the video is a camera that records what?
A. It records anything
in front of the camera itself, which mounts on the dash and is pointed
forward to
the front of the unit,
or anything in front of the camera it will record in a video picture.
Q. And accordingly, did this video picture record anything relating to Defendant McVeigh's person?
A. No.
Q. What did it record?
A. It recorded the unit, the car he was driving, and myself as I was walking about.
Q. Now, prior to the interview, did you take any steps to inform Defendant McVeigh of his rights?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you do?
A. I read him the Miranda warning.
Q. And after you read him the Miranda warning, did you ask him questions about the Miranda warning?
A. I asked him if he understood it.
Q. What did he say?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he agree to speak with you?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you ask him then?
A. I asked him why he didn't have a tag.
Q. All right. All right. And what did he say?
A. He said he had recently
bought the vehicle and didn't have a tag. I asked him where he bought the
vehicle. He said that
he had purchased it in Junction City, Kansas, from a Firestone dealer,
and the
salesman's name was
Tom.
Q. Did he give you any information about that sale?
A. Yes. He said he paid
about $250 for the car and had traded in another car that had broken down
on
him.
Q. And did you ask him any questions about the tag?
A. Yes. I asked him again
why he hadn't obtained a tag. And he said, Well, he had a tag off his other
car,
but he felt like it
was better to drive without a tag than to put the improper tag on there.
Q. All right. Did he describe anything about his prior tag?
A. He said it was an Arizona tag and cited the number.
Q. Do you recall what that was?
A. No.
Q. At this point in the
encounter, did you seek Defendant McVeigh's permission with regard to anything
in relation to his car?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you ask him?
A. I asked him if I could search his car.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said yes.
Q. Now, what was the reason you wanted to search his car?
A. I was looking for any other weapons or contraband.
Q. At the time of this
encounter, did you have any reason at all to believe that the man you had
arrested
had any involvement
at all with the Oklahoma City bombing?
A. No.
Q. After Defendant McVeigh gave you consent to search his car, what did you do, step by step?
A. I got out, I proceeded
up to the car, I first went to the area where the VIN was located, the
vehicle
identification number
that we spoke of earlier; and I recorded that number down on a -- I don't
remember. It was a piece
of paper or the flap of my ticket book.
* * *
This is a very strange
situation. Can you reconcile in your mind the behavior of this 27- year
old who has
allegedly just blown
up a federal building, is fleeing the scene, driving along, not speeding,
gets pulled
over by a state trooper,
then hands the officer his gun, his knife and tells the officer its okay
to search his
car? Then the state
trooper and McVeigh have a cordial conversation as he's transported to
the local jail.
Is this not strange
behavior?
I would like to go back
to Hoppy Heidelberg's interview with John Rappaport, December 14, 1995
and
again on December 16,
1995. When you're looking for clues, you have to look everywhere and Hoppy,
having sat on the original
federal grand jury, had heard first hand testimony from the actual people
involved, i.e., Jennifer
McVeigh, one of Timothy's two sisters. Below is an excerpt from that interview
that I find important
and which should have been fully explored:
Q: The truck bomb couldn't
have caused the major damage to the building. That indicates the presence
of other professional
participants who planted charges inside the building. The FBI and the prosecution
and the Grand Jury ignore
all this. They don't want to bring this up, so they simply focus on McVeigh
and
Nichols and no one else.
They concentrate on Fortier, browbeat him, and still they get nothing of
substance from him.
A: That's right.
December 16, 1995, part two of the interview.
Q: The Media Bypass article
said the FBI put a lot of pressure on McVeigh's sister. Like Fortier, she
started out strongly
defending her brother, and ended up being a witness against him. I mean,
a sister
testifying against her
brother....
A: The FBI sat on both
McVeigh's sister and his mother. My impression is the FBI took them somewhere
to pressure them. McVeigh's
sister is a nice person. So FBI pressure was effective. She has a conscience.
You can turn around
a person with a conscience.
Q: Did McVeigh's sister
say McVeigh told her he had worked for a special operations Army group
that
was engaged in criminal
activity?
A: Not exactly. She said something like that.
Q: That her brother told her such a special operations group existed?
A: Yes. But more than that.
Q: That they had recruited him and he turned them down?
A: Yes.
I again go back to the
quote in the Denver Post, April 23, 1995, front page. This is two days
after McVeigh
is fingered as the suspect
and since this is a morning paper, this interview with Mr. Morawski was
apparently done on the
22nd of April, 1995:
"He said he had this
real sharp pain in his rear." Philip Morawski recalled yesterday. "He thought
they
(the Army) had planted
one of those chips that they have for identifying cattle, sheep or goats
so the
all-seeing eye of the
government could keep an eye on him and know where he was."
This is a very odd thing
to tell a reporter, don't you think? Of all the things someone who knew
him from
his home town to say,
this was strange. But, considering what McVeigh's younger sister, Jennifer
said on
the stand when she testified
at the first federal grand jury, perhaps it isn't so strange.
Morawski was just one
of many interviewed in his home town that day. Most remembered him as a
quiet, church-going
boy. All the earlier photos you see of him are clean-cut, smiling and just
plain
ordinary. The family
members of victims and survivors stated in numerous television interviews
that
when they looked at
McVeigh, they were looking at evil. Others say they saw a patsy. I say
we're trying to
solve a puzzle without
all the pieces.
However, we shall plug on here with these strange idiosyncracies regarding McVeigh.
As we know, he had a
rather ordinary upbringing, divorce seeming to be quite ordinary these
past couple
of decades. He went
into the military, excelled and was decorated for his service. We have
a somewhat
shadowy area from his
application for special forces and what his sister, Jennifer, testified
to at the grand
jury. It's unfortunate
we can't read all of her testimony about this specific time, but it is
grand jury
testimony, after all
and secret.
We know the military
injects soldiers with all kinds of things all the time, especially when
they're being
shipped out of the country.
Most Americans have seen or heard all the flap about forcing our military
to
take anthrax shots.
Bio-chips are so tiny, a person getting one may not even realize what happened
other
than a sharp pain, kinda
like any other shot. Did this happen? The military isn't going to say unless
they're
forced to produce all
of the documents they hold on McVeigh. We can't ask McVeigh. Despite being
a
Catholic and receiving
the last rites, which means he knows it's against church doctrine to be
cremated,
McVeigh requests it
and there goes any evidence. McVeigh also refused an autopsy. It was approved
by
Judge Richard Matsch
(March 19, 2001) and between McVeigh and the Terra Haute prison authorities.
They did a "noninvasive"
and that takes care of that.
Lori Fortier went to
great lengths to explain under oath that the reason McVeigh chose the name
"Robert Kling" for his
fake driver's license was because he loved to watch Star Trek and Kling
was a
knock-off having to
do with the "Klingons."
There were media reports
that while in the federal prison out in Terra Haute, McVeigh loved to watch
cartoons and Star Trek.
When McVeigh was executed, he was 33 years old. 33 years old watching
cartoons.
McVeigh never went anywhere without the book, The Turner Diaries.
Recall the interview
in Newsweek, July 3, 1995, (see my prior post), where McVeigh thought the
deaths of
all the children at
OKC was "horrible." He was "bothered" by Waco. Not some vicious diatribe
about
Waco, just "bothered."
This was just a couple of weeks after the bombing. The interview was relaxed
and McVeigh's demeanor,
at least what I can tell from looking at the photos and what he said, was
very
strange. This guy was
being held as a suspect for bombing a building which killed 168 people.
He acted
like he didn't have
a care in the world. Cold-blooded killer or a 27-year old kid who really
didn't
understand how deep
the doo-doo was he was sitting in?
I personally watched
Stephen Jones on television, making the talk circuit rounds before McVeigh's
execution, call his
former client a pathological liar. During Jones' closing statement in McVeigh's
first
trial, Jones' referred
to McVeigh as "my friend, yes he is my friend." I have never seen the type
of behavior
displayed by an attorney
towards his client, at least publicly, in all my years as I have watched
from Jones
over the past couple
of months. Stephen Jones is friends with Gov. Frank Keating and knew people
in the
building who were killed.
He should never have been tagged as McVeigh's defense attorney.
In the last 72 hours
before his execution, McVeigh's lawyers, Nathan Chambers and Robert Nigh,
continued to say at
every press conference that their client was "upbeat," "doing just fine"
and other odd
descriptions of a man
getting ready to have a lethal federal cocktail that would end his life.
"Upbeat?"
"He's taking this well
and is feeling fine?" A rather meek attitude for this vicious mad killer.
Yes, I
suppose he could have
made "peace" with God, except we have a problem here: For the months
preceding his execution,
he was described as an atheist, an agnostic and then finally at the end,
he asked
to be given the last
rites according to the Catholic Church, the faith in which he was raised.
Even people
who make their peace
with God, do they really get ready to lay down for a lethal injection happy
and
upbeat? Strange moods.
You'll recall the prior
post I did on the book by Gov. Frank Keating's brother, Martin, titled
"The Final
Jihad." That whole thing
is beyond strange. Next I would recount a movie that is brilliant in the
way the
truth was told. As an
"entertainment" piece, the average person out there who has done no research,
would blow it off as
a made-up story, yet it contained so much truth. This movie is Conspiracy
Theory
starring Mel Gibson.
A brilliant script and I ask you to bear with me a little longer here before
you
knee-jerk.
In this movie, Gibson
is an individual who was subjected to mind control/behavior modification
under
something called MK
Ultra. In his flashbacks, he sees cartoons. He does things, but doesn't
know why,
i.e., he can't be without
a copy of Catcher in the Rye. He just has to have that book with him all
the time.
However, somewhere along
the line, Gibson separates himself from his handlers and the "stuff" hits
the
fan.
In this movie, Gibson
points out to Julia Roberts that all the high-profile assassins have three
names:
James Earl Ray, Lee
Harvey Oswald and so on. She inquires about John Hinkley, Jr. who shot
President
Ronald Reagan on March
30, 1981. Gibson replies: "But Reagan didn't die." Ms. Roberts retorts
with
"How about Sirhan Sirhan?"
Gibson is stumped but says "Sirhan Shirhan Sirhan!" Actually, the man does
have three names:
Sirhan Bishara Sirhan.
I do not believe he killed Senator Bobby Kennedy and if you'd like the
latest on his case,
go to:
http://www.daywilliams.com/kennedy_bobby.html
Back to our case. Most
people hear the defendant referred to as Tim McVeigh or Timothy McVeigh.
However, the print media
has a consistent way of always printing Timothy James McVeigh.
How about another oddity?
A former Clinton intern Mary Caitrin Mahoney, was shot to death
execution-style at a
Georgetown Starbucks coffee shop in 1997. Two of her co-workers were also
executed along with
her. This young woman was a lesbian and apparently was making some noise
about
Mr. Clinton and his
goings-on in the White House. What that noise was, we'll never know. However,
it's interesting that
the suspect arrested in her killing is Carl Derek Cooper. Funny the little
things you
pick up on.
In my prior posts, I
gave you the URL to the official site for the 900-page report on government
experimentations on
Americans without their knowledge or permission.
Do any of you remember
the scandal a few years ago about the Tuskegee Syphilis Study? It's about
the
government's despicable
treatment of the men of Tuskegee. We only hear about these things 30, 40
or
50 years after the fact.
Request for Redress of the Wrongs of Tuskegee
"In January 1996, the
Tuskegee Syphilis Study Legacy Committee met at Tuskegee University to
explore
how the government and
the nation could publicly address the Tuskegee Syphilis Study and its impact.
The final report of
the Committee from May 20, 1996 is abstracted and presented in its entirety
below:
Abstract of the Syphilis Study Legacy Committee
Final Report of May 20, 1996
"From 1932 to 1972, 399
poor black sharecroppers in Macon County, Alabama were denied treatment
for syphilis and deceived
by physicians of the Unites States Public Health Service. As part of the
Tuskegee
Syphilis Study, designed
to document the natural history of the disease, these men were told that
they
were being treated for
"bad blood." In fact, government officials went to extreme lengths to insure
that they
received no therapy
from any source. As reported by the NewYork Times on 26 July 1972, the
Tuskegee
Syphilis Study was revealed
as "the longest nontherapeutic experiment on human beings in medical
history."
The full report is available at:
http://www.med.virginia.edu/hs-library/historical/apology/report.html
Geoff Metcalf, talk show
host extraordinare, conducted an interview recently on the NSA (National
Security Agency). For
those who don't know, it's twice the size of the CIA and operates in almost
complete obscurity and
little to no oversight. This is a dangerous thing for our Republic. I highly
encourage you to read
Geoff's interview on this very important issue:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23342
Have you ever heard of
MK Ultra? Is this just more rantings of the anti-government crowd? I would
ask
that you read the 1977
senate hearings on this and other some other factual information about
the CIA's
secret government programs,
specifically MK Ultra. You see, that part in the movie, Conspiracy Theory,
where Patrick Stewart
tells Julia Roberts that Gibson was a subject of the MK Ultra program -
it was in
fact a real program.
It was a CIA program.
My own research into
this murky, black ops, spook stuff, horrified me. There is a lot of information
available on it. The
big question is: Did the experiments stop? What really goes on with agencies
like the
CIA and NSA that have
budgets in excess of $50 million dollars a year and even members of the
United
States Congress are
not even privy to the activities being conducted? That's right and you
can verify this
yourself by contacting
your congressman or woman. It's the horrible truth.
http://www.parascope.com/ds/documentslibrary/documents/mkultrahearing/index.htm
In the beginning of the
testimony, the central, key players deny that any experiments were conducted
on
any Americans. But,
hold on and read on:
"Senator KENNEDY. Admiral
Turner, this is an enormously distressing report that you give to the
American Congress and
to the American people today. Granted, it happened many years ago, but
what
we are basically talking
about is an activity which took place in the country that involved the
perversion
and the corruption of
many of our outstanding research centers in this country, with CIA funds,
where
some of our top researchers
were unwittingly involved in research sponsored by the Agency in which
they had no knowledge
of the background or the support for.
"Much of it was done
with American citizens who were completely unknowing in terms of taking
various
drugs, and there are
perhaps any number of Americans who are walking around today on the east
coast
or west coast who were
given drugs, with all the kinds of physical and psychological damage that
can be
caused. We have gone
over that in very careful detail, and it is significant and severe indeed.
"Senator SCHWEIKER. Admiral
Turner, I read in the New York Times that part of this series of
MKULTRA experiments
involved an arrangement with the Federal Bureau of Narcotics to test LSD
surreptitiously on unwitting
patrons in bars in New York and San Francisco. Some of the subjects
became violently ill
and were hospitalized. I wonder if you would just briefly describe what
we were
doing there and how
it was carried out? I assume it was through a safe house operation. I don't
believe
your statement went
into much detail.
"Admiral TURNER. I did
mention the safe house operation in my statement, sir, and that is how
these
were carried out. What
we have learned from the new documentation is the location and the dates
at
which the safe houses
were run by the CIA and the identification of three individuals who were
associated with running
those safe houses. We know something about the construction work that was
done in them because
there were contracts for this. Beyond that, we are pretty much drawing
inferences as
to the things that went
on as to what you are saying here.
"Senator SCHWEIKER. Well, the subjects were unwitting. You can infer that much, right?
"Admiral TURNER. Right.
"Senator SCHWEIKER. If you happened to be at the wrong bar at the wrong place and time, you got it.
"Mr. BRODY. Senator,
that would be -- contacts were made, as we understand it, in bars, et cetera,
and
then the people may
have been invited to these safe houses. There really isn't any indication
as to the
fact that this took
place in bars.
"Admiral TURNER. We are
trying to be very precise with you, sir, and not draw an inference here.
There are 6 cases of
these 149 where we have enough evidence in this new documentation to
substantiate that there
was unwitting testing and some of that involves these safe houses. There
are
other cases where it
is ambiguous as to whether the testing was witting or voluntary. There
are others
where it was clearly
voluntary.
"Senator SCHWEIKER. Of
course, after a few drinks, it is questionable whether informed consent
means
anything to a person
in a bar anyway.
"Admiral TURNER. Well,
we don't have any indication that all these cases where it is ambiguous
involved drinking of
any kind. There are cases in penal institutions where it is not clear whether
the
prisoner was given a
choice or not. I don't know that he wasn't given a choice, but I don't
positively
know that he was, and
I classify that as an ambiguous incident."
I would ask: Is anyone in this government believable anymore?
http://earthops.org/mk_ultra.html
MK-Ultra: The CIA and Radiation
Interim Report of the Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments
Appendix, pp. E-1.1 to 1.6
"Nonetheless, CIA engaged
in a program of domestic human experimentation from the 1950s into the
1970s.
"CIA components most
likely to have. been associated with any experiment are the Office of Scientific
Intelligence (OSI) in
the Directorate of Intelligence, the Office of Security, the Technical
Services
Division (TSD) in the
then-Directorate of Plans (DDP, now Directorate of Operations), and (at
least
from 1962) the Office
of Research and Development (ORD) in the Directorate of Science and
Technology. Beginning
in the late 1940s, OSI analyzed and disseminated foreign scientific, and
medical
intelligence concerning
the development and testing of atomic weapons and interacted with DOD and
the Atomic Energy Commission
(AEC) on these issues. TSD ran Project MKULTRA, discussed below.
Human experimentation
was done prior to MKULTRA by OSI and the Office of Security and, after
MKULTRA, by ORD.
Experiments
"To date, CIA has found
no records or other information indicating that it conducted or sponsored
human radiation experiments.
Records Search
"In response to the January
1994 presidential directive, CIA conducted an agency-wide search for
information about human
radiation experiments that it may have conducted.[ 1 ] At the Committee's
initial meeting in April
1994, CIA stated that the search encompassed an electronic review of
approximately 34 million
documents, a manual review of 480,300 documents, and nearly 50 interviews.
CIA also stated that
it had found no documents relating to experiments conducted by other agencies.
The Committee, however,
has since found records indicating that CIA officers did participate in
DOD
groups in which human
radiation experiments, including those involving the placement of troops
at
atmospheric weapons
tests, were discussed and planned. As discussed below, CIA is continuing
to search
for documents relating
to these and other activities.
"Beginning in the early
1950s, CIA engaged in an extensive program of human experimentation, using
drugs, psychological.
and other means in search of techniques to control human behavior CIA has
so far
found no evidence that
radiation experiments on humans were part of this program. CIA documents
and
a 1963 CIA Inspector
General (IG) report. however state quite clearly that .MKULTRA was a program
"concerned with research
and development of chemical. biological. and radiological materials capable
of
employment in clandestine
operations to control human behavior." (emphasis added) The IG report
states that "additional
avenues to the control of human behavior had been designated . . as appropriate
to
investigation under
the MKULTRA charter, including radiation, electroshock. various fields
of
psychology, sociology,
and anthropology, graphology, harassment substances, and paramilitary devices
and materials." (emphasis
added)[ 2 ] The program included unwitting experimentation on humans with
LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide),
brainwashing, and other interrogation methods.
"CIA's human behavior
program originated in 1950 and was motivated by Soviet, Chinese, and North
Korean use of mind control
techniques. It began under the code name BLUEBIRD (and was later known
as ARTICHOKE) and was
operated by the Office of Security and OSI with support from other offices.
MKULTRA formally began
in April 1953 as a special, clandestine funding mechanism for DOD human
behavior research. The
program was the subject of investigations by the Rockefeller Commission
in
1975, the Senate Church
Committee in 1976, and hearings by Senator Kennedy in 1975 and 1977,
however, these committees
did not focus on radiation experiments, and no such information was found
by them.
"CIA has told the Committee
that MKULTRA involved human experimentation using every research
"avenue" listed in the
MKULTRA document except for radiation.[ 3 ] The agency also noted that
most of
the MKULTRA records
were deliberately destroyed in 1973 by the order of then-Director of Central
Intelligence Richard
Helms[ 4 ] In early September 1991. The agency found a document that summarized
work done for ARTICHOKE
which states that "[i]n addition to hypnosis. chemical and psychiatric
research. the following
fields have been explored ... 7) other physical manifestations. including
heat and
cold, atmospheric pressure,
radiation." (emphasis added) .Although there is no indication from this
document that radiation
was explored on humans directly. it makes clear that CIA did "explore"
radiation as a possibility
for the defensive and offensive use of brainwashing and other interrogating
techniques.[ 5 ]
* * *
The web site below has
a very good compilation of the history and documents on government mind
control documents. These
aren't documents that some conspiracy nut made up. These are real exhibits
and transcripts:
http://www.parascope.com/ds/mkultradocs.htm
This is very, very serious
and scary stuff. Do not discount it, because as Patrick Henry once said,
"We are
apt to close our eyes
to a painful truth."
I know the field day
the compromised media would like to have with all this. However, you are
the jury
and it's what you think
and believe that's important, not what Tom Brokaw or Brit Hume tells you
to think.
One thing I learned from
reading all the government documents, hearing transcripts, etc., about
these
mind control projects,
and if you saw the movie The Manchurian Candidate, a very truthful portrayal
of
the potential of this
insanity, you discovered that certain things trigger desired behavior.
In the movie I cited
above, Gibson was triggered
by cartoons. His compulsive behavior to carry a copy of Catcher in the
Rye,
is a symptom of someone
who has either been hypnotized or "programmed."
Here we have a young
man, McVeigh, who has such inconsistent behavior, it begs to be examined.
Everyone has asked the
questions: Why? How could anyone do this? I believe we should consider
that
something happened while
he was still active in the military and I sure would like to see all his
records
from DoD and any other
agency and non-agency of the federal government. Maybe he was just a
cold-blooded killer,
period, nothing more to say. How will we ever know unless all records are
released
before they get destroyed
to cover the backsides of the higher-ups?
McVeigh confessed. I
have given my opinion on his confessions. They are too pat. Too military.
Too
cold. Too consistent
and the level of writing, the deliberate targeting of Iraq as an example
of justifying
the killing of innocent
civilians, just reeks. I don't say this because I want McVeigh to be innocent,
he's
already dead. I say
this because everything about the defendant has been strange from the very
beginning:
His behavior when being arrested.
His relaxed interview in Newsweek, July 3, 1995.
Then his "steely look"
coming out of the jail in Perry. A look that remained consistent all these
years to
the public eye. This
look could have been from stark fear. However, he was apparently very different
when not in public.
As I covered in other pieces, his guards and law enforcement escorts described
him
as an easy going person,
a model prisoner. Real friendly.
Bob Popovich, one of
the handful of civilians to ever see McVeigh in prison, was confused by
McVeigh's
actions while incarcerated,
i.e. sending a confession to the British newspapers. Popovich has stated
that
one minute Tim was his
old self and the next minute, he would change dramatically. Popovich just
doesn't know what to
make of it and he had been friends with the defendant for years.
Everyone from reporters
to family members who watched McVeigh's execution said he "remained
defiant to the end."
I didn't see this event, but has it occurred to anyone that despite the
desciptions from
McVeigh's lawyers that
their client "felt good" "was in good spirits," just may have been scared
to death
at the end? I've never
seen anyone strapped onto a gurney for a lethal cocktail, but I would imagine
some
are defiant and given
a drug to calm them down and some probably just don't believe what's about
to
happen and are in shock,
giving a blank look. Who knows?
Do you remember what
I covered in prior posts about the syringes being found on the trays going
to
McVeigh and Nichols'
cells while incarcerated at the El Reno facility (Oklahoma) back in August
1995?
This made major tv coverage
in OKC. What was in those syringes? Was an investigation done? If so,
what were the results?
McVeigh had a distinctive
style of handwriting: a backwards slant.The rental contract where the Ryder
truck was rented (Junction
City, Kansas) had handwriting consistent with McVeigh's, but none of
McVeigh's fingerprints
or palm prints were on the contract. Whose were? We have someone else who
just happens to have
that same backward slant-style of handwriting. Very confusing. Does this
create
reasonable doubt in
your mind?
Conclusion
Ladies and gentlemen:
Without the ability to have all the information and evidence on this case
that the
feds have, primarily
the 23 pieces of video which they refuse to release, there isn't much more
to present
at this point in time.
We have a building that
was blown from inside and an alleged truck bomb in front of the building.
There
is video from the security
camera across the street that the Department of Justice, now under the
stewardship of our Christian
Attorney General, John Ashcroft, is fighting hard to keep suppressed. Why?
We have forensic evidence
analyzed by compromised personnel and inexcusably shoddy work. Some of
the actions of these
FBI lab personnel I think are criminal and they should have been prosecuted.
One of
the worst was allowed
to simply retire. What a travesty.
We have sightings of
the defendant in OKC. As a matter of fact, we have too many McVeigh's running
around.
We have a defendant that looks like an ATF agent.
McVeigh was a soldier
at one time and apparently, tried very hard to advance himself. His soldier's
confession doesn't wash,
at least in my book. For one thing, soldier's don't deliberately kill innocent
women and children.
When the colonies went to war with the British, the patriots blew up ammo
storage facilities and
things of that nature - military targets. Not women and children in a church.
McVeigh was a student
of the constitution and U.S. history. He was a solider and while his alleged
confessions reek of
carefully crafted letters, I have a difficult time believing he really
felt this way.
McVeigh's interview in
Newsweek two weeks after the bombing, specifically his reaction to the
deaths of
children, just doesn't
jive with this "collateral damage" stuff. Besides, one of the authors of
the book
(Herbeck) where this
phrase appeared, admitted to Gen. Ben Partin, that he lied when he said
he
interviewed McVeigh
for 75 hours with his partner (Michel). I will take Gen. Partin's word
over this
reporter out to make
a buck, any day of the week.
We have a defendant,
now deceased, who exhibited such strange and inconsistent behavior, one
doesn't
know what to think.
I realize that almost everyone thinks he is the mad bomber. If this weren't
the OKC
bombing we're talking
about, I believe more people would have real, valid questions and a lot
of
reasonable doubt.
We have a defendant,
now deceased, who was in the military, but we do not know exactly what
and
where he was involved
with while in uniform. The defendant was arraigned at Tinker, AFB. He was
a
civilian at the time.
There were other federal court houses he could have been flown to - and
yes, he was
flown because you can
see that photo in section 5, the photo gallery.
There is another strange
thing here: The death certificate:
Please note box #: Decedents's usual occupation - Soldier.
This would be the same
as listing my husband's usual occupation if he passed away tomorrow, as
soldier.
John is a retired Army
Colonel and has been out of the military for ten years. His usual occupation
is a
construction management
engineer.
McVeigh was basically
a drifter, going from place to place, picking up a little money here and
there selling
various and sundry things,
including books, at gun shows. His military service was short:
"May of 1988, he entered
the armed services and stayed there until December of 1991, in the United
States Army. After Fort
Benning, his permanent station duty was Fort Riley, Kansas. And there he
became a gunner for
a Bradley fighting vehicle and repeatedly throughout his Army service,
as his friends
will testify here, he
achieved a top gun ranking. In fact, first among 93 other Bradley gunners.
"He achieved extraordinary
advancement in the enlisted ranks from a private E1 to a sergeant E5 in
less
than three years. And
then when the Operation Desert Shield, which became Operation Desert Storm,
started, he served in
the front line assault, in the Kuwait/Iraq operations. He was literally
on the front
line and made one of
the first invasions into the enemy area.
"During this service
in the military, he earned one of our highest awards, the Bronze Star.
He also earned
the Army Commendation
medal with an upgrade for valor. He received the Army Commendation medal,
two Army Achievement
medals, and several others. In fact, his unit was chosen to be the inner
perimeter
guard at the site where
General Schwarzkopf and his opposite number in the Iraqi army arranged
the
terms of the armistice
that ended the war.
"After the war, he returned
to the United States. He came back initially to go into the special forces.
He
had been accepted into
it, but he had been in the desert for several months, had lost a considerable
amount of weight and
frankly physically wasn't up to it; so he and a friend of his who came
back with him
and joined on the same
day dropped out the second day, because they knew they weren't cut out
for his
physically. He went
back to Fort Riley, stayed in the service and then eventually got out,
went into the
reserves in New York,
and then went to work at some of the places that I have suggested to you
here."
Stephen Jones, opening
statement
Prior to his short stint
in the military, McVeigh worked at odd jobs like Burger King and Burns
Security.
His "usual occupation"
was not a soldier. I still wonder why he was flown to a military base to
be
arraigned?
You the jury are now asked to render a verdict:
As the jury, can you
find Timothy James McVeigh guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of driving
a yellow
Ryder truck up to the
front of the Murrah Building, set off a bomb and walk away, leaving behind
incredible carnage?
Or, as a member of the
jury, would you have preferred that McVeigh's execution be stayed until
the
government is forced
to turn over all video and documents so his defense team could have a chance
to
give him a real defense
and we can see what is on all those videos?
The government used Timothy
James McVeigh's political views to convict him. It was hammered in the
media and saturated
the government's presentation to the first jury. If Timothy McVeigh had
been a
"regular" guy who worked
at the local Office Max warehouse, do you believe the first jury would
have
convicted him beyond
any reasonable doubt? Who knows? They were never given all the evidence.
One of
the big questions that
remains is how did the FBI key in on McVeigh's name when Robert Kling was
the
one they were looking
for from the rental contract at the Ryder facility long before they even
knew who
Lori Fortier was?
Is it possible that Timothy
James McVeigh could have been, like others before him, was an unwitting
guinea pig in some black
ops government program? Is it possible?
How many times have the
American people found out they've been lied to on so many issues by the
federal
government and their
agencies?
I ask again: Is this
possible? You read the material on this mind control stuff. Do you believe
the
government? I don't,
not knowing what I know. I don't, not knowing what I know. As I said
earlier, my
credibility is everything.
But, I am willing to state at this point in time that I am convinced that
Lee Harvey
Oswald and Timothy James
McVeigh are the only two alleged killers that I believe fit the profile
perfectly
as unwitting victims
of some sort of behavioral program and controlled either with drugs, mind
control,
or in McVeigh's case,
possibly a bio-chip implantation.
Over the past ten years
I have met many people who claim to be victims of mind control. I have
read
several books by alleged
victims, i.e. Cathy O'Brien. I have believed none of them. The only two
individuals that I personally
believe, and again, it's my personal opinion, completely fit the mold are
Oswald and McVeigh.
You, as a member of this jury must make up your own mind about this and
decide
two things:
1. You must find beyond
a reasonable doubt that McVeigh was fully aware of his actions and was
indeed a
cold-blooded killer,
and
2. What killed the building? Who killed the building?
Someone went to a lot
of trouble to make sure McVeigh - or someone who looked very similiar to
him -
got out of a Ryder truck
in broad daylight so that everyone could identify this person. I have stated
before: Why would McVeigh
do such a thing? Because this 27-year old wanted to get caught so he could
spend the rest of his
life in a federal prison, or worse, face execution? I don't think so. I
think it was well
planned so that the
person who actually exited the truck on the driver's side, if there was
such an
individual, was comfortable
being seen leaving this truck in broad daylight because he knew he would
never be suspected of
this crime.
On April 23, 1995, my
mother and I were in a hotel room in Los Angeles. On the morning news a
remarkable thing happened:
The sketch of the "suspect" was shown and then Timothy James Mceigh's
face was super-imposed
right into the sketch and it was a perfect match. Mother and I watched
this with
fascination and both
of us remarked that that sketch was an exact match for McVeigh's photo.
How
remarkable.
Why did McVeigh just
suddenly roll over and say, "Fine, kill me, I feel real good about it?"
Soldiers don't
give up, they fight
to the end. If you believe or even suspect that McVeigh wasn't in complete
control of
his faculties, then
you must find that he was incapable of being an active participant in his
own defense. A
subject of hypnosis,
chemical experimentation or one of these insidious mind control projects
is as incapable of
defending themselves
as would an infant.
I rest my case and pray
to God that the people of this nation continue to demand the release of
all video
and exculpatory documents
held by any government or non- government agency involving the bombing
of the Murrah Building.
When you read the trial transcripts, you will see many instances where
documents and transcripts
are sealed there in the courtroom as a result of in-chambers or bench
conferences without
the jury present. Un-seal them. Let's get to the truth.
The other thing people
can do is file a Freedom of Information Act request with Ashcroft's office
for all
the video film taken
out of the outside camera(s) mounted on the Southwestern Bell Building
on April
19, 1995. All the film
- this means any camera directed at the Murrah Building and to the left
and right.
Include all film taken
from any outside cameras mounted on the Murrah Building itself. This FOIA
should
include all the raw
footage snatched by the feds from the local TV stations who were on scene
within
minutes. This footage
in invaluable in identifying who was walking around.
Ashcroft's web site explains how to file a FOIA with his office:
Please be mindful that
you must tell them that you will pay reasonable costs but they should notify
you if
the amount for supplying
the video will exceed $100 or whatever you're willing to pay. The feds
are
already trying to get
this one FOIA suit for all the video dismissed and they sure don't want
any more
Americans nosing around
those 23 reels of film. I think if they get 50,000 - 60,000 FOIA's for
this film, we
might start to shake
things loose.
If they have nothing
to hide, show us the film and allow the originals to be examined by an
independent lab in
front of Gen. Ben Partin
and some of the families or survivors. If it sounds like I don't trust
Mr. Ashcroft and
his federal boys and
girls, you got that one right. Louis Freeh is being praised all over the
place for being
such a good steward
of the FBI. He is worst than a disgrace. He has covered up and condoned
murder
and is no better than
his former boss, Janet Reno. Sadly, it appears that Mr. Ashcroft is following
in the
same vein of deny, deny,
deny.
One final thing that may be taken one of two ways, you decide:
On June 11, 2001, it
had rained quite a bit, but stopped a while before the scheduled execution.
At 7:00
am in Terra Haute, Indiana,
at the exact time Timothy James McVeigh was receiving his judicial cocktail,
a huge rainbow appeared
over the federal penitentiary.
Copyrighted June 2001